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Elegy for Númenor - Volume 1: Journey to Umbar by elfscribe Mature
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Heaven's Reward Fallacy by mangacrack Explicit
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Shoutbox

Spiced Wine
07/23/17 09:34 pm
I'm so glad to hear that, Ziggy! Take it easy :)
ziggy
07/23/17 01:12 am
Thanks Spiced- yes, loads better thank you- slower than I expected but getting there:)
Spiced Wine
07/20/17 10:19 pm
I hope you had a lovely time, Naledi. And Ziggy, I hope you are recovering well
Naledi
07/20/17 10:10 am
Thanks, Ziggy. Oh no - heaven forbid that the Shoutbox should be civilised! It sounds like things need to be shaken up!
ziggy
07/18/17 11:53 pm
Welcome back Naledi! It's been very civilised in your absence:) Everyone has been behaving and not making people write things they shouldn't;)
Naledi
07/18/17 09:00 pm
Hi all, I've been quiet lately because I've been away a lot. Sorry I missed your birthday, Glorfindel. I hope everyone's well.
ziggy
07/13/17 12:00 am
Yes- have a lovely day Binki:) xx
Alpha Ori
07/12/17 09:52 pm
Have a great day Binky!!
Spiced Wine
07/11/17 10:13 am
Have a lovely time Alquien. Same for me, internet/wifi both very iffy.
Alquien
07/10/17 03:21 pm
Starting today, I am on vacation for 2 weeks. No internet though (or very iffy, at best) so I will have lots to catch up on when I get back. Have fun everyone! ((hugs))
Shout Archive



Name: Spiced Wine (Signed) · Date: July 22, 2017 16:24 · For: Intermission: Rage, rage against the dying of the light, Part II
Excuse the typos, I corrected them, it's a pan on my iPad.

Yes, I think this way it is well, more tortuous, but I also cannot wait to see what happens when they meet again. So much unsaid, but the fact that Fingolfin asked, demanded to see his brother and just blazed into power and glory was superb and heartbreaking. And what Feanor is doing is far more than noble.

Author's Response:

“Excuse the typos, I corrected them, it's a pan on my iPad.

Hey, no problem!  I am not good at double-checking my reviews/replies for typos myself!

I am glad you like the change too :)  It is more tortuous, but hopefully more interesting too, since so much will be left to be sorted out.  The way it was before would have made things too easy I think.  I a hundred more chapters of UST between these two lol  I am terrible :grins:

“And what Feanor is doing is far more than noble.

I think so too.  It is very self-sacrificing of him, which I think he always had the potential to be, given his response to the Valar demanded he give them the Silmarils after the Trees’ death.  He considered it, and that is a damn sight more than most people would do, it wasn’t like the Valar couldn’t have made new light to stop anyone from suffering, they only wanted the Silmarils so they could have exactly the same thing as before.  I wanted to delve into this side of his character, one we haven’t see really show up yet in the story.  I think he will need to develop it to be the best leader he can be when he gets out :)

 

Thank you again for all the lovely, lovely reviews :hugs:



Name: Spiced Wine (Signed) · Date: July 07, 2017 19:59 · For: Intermission: Rage, rage against the dying of the light, Part II
I just sobbed my heart out realising that Feanor had not known Fingolfin followed him (and could not even understand why he had) and had to see that image.

These are just two wonderfully larger than life characters in the depths of horror and despair and grief they still hold on. It is impossibly painful

Author's Response:

Thank you so much for the reviews, Spiced!!!!  I hope you are doing well, and am glad to hear how much you enjoyed the edit!  It makes the story even sadder (as if we need more of that lol), but I think it will be more interesting when they are reborn.  Now, they can remember what happened when they were in the Halls, and still have lots of things unsaid between them to work out!  I really want to see what happens when they are reborn….

“I just sobbed my heart out realising that Feanor had not known Fingolfin followed him (and could not even understand why he had) and had to see that image.”

I know!  He still has no idea!  And he doesn’t remember much of those years when he was grief-mad, so he only has the memories of before to go off of.  Oh what oh what will happen when they two meet again :)  I can’t wait to find out!!

 

Thank you so much for the reviews, they made my day :hugs:



Name: Spiced Wine (Signed) · Date: July 06, 2017 23:14 · For: Chapter 17
I just realised, awfully, why Fingolfin did not find his brother, because he is still undergoing his torment, his payment for all their supposed sins. I am broken :(


Name: Spiced Wine (Signed) · Date: July 06, 2017 21:12 · For: Intermission: Rage, rage against the dying of the light, Part I
I am absolutely on my knees at Fingolfin's exploding from despair into blue fierce, that was beautiful! But I am devasted he did not see his brother.


Name: Spiced Wine (Signed) · Date: July 06, 2017 18:55 · For: Intermission: Rage, rage against the dying of the light, Part I
That was a magnificent edit to this chapter, just superb!


Name: merwinem (Signed) · Date: June 23, 2017 11:48 · For: Intermission: Rage, rage against the dying of the light, Part I
Have you been editing parts of this story recently? A few days ago I noticed that the Halls of Mandos scenes are different from what I remember (ah, you did rewrite those scenes – I just saw your reply to hauntedpoem’s review). While I liked the old versions of those scenes, I think I prefer the updated ones.

I loved the idea of the scales! This is definitely something the Valar would do – focus on the bad actions of a person and completely ignore the good ones. It is such a parody of justice. As for Feanor… I love him, but he has to evolve as a character before he is reborn, otherwise we will be back to square one. The Feanor that tends to dismiss people as “unimportant” has to go… I don’t think Feanor should change into a Sue who can do no wrong (please no, that would be absolutely terrible), but he has to grow quite a bit in order to become the king he is meant to be. Yeah… that’s why I like that Feanor is trying to spare his followers suffering by taking their “crimes” onto his own scales. He is taking responsibility for his actions and, most importantly, showing compassion (something the Valar clearly lack) for his people. He is beginning to realize that being a leader is not just shouting orders and leading men into battle, but also caring for those who follow him (all of them, not just the ones he likes). I think this is very significant character growth. After all, when Finwe was killed, Feanor’s own grief was all-consuming and he really wasn’t concerned with his people’s horror at their king’s death and the darkening (which is why the majority of the Noldor followed Fingolfin in the first place). But now Feanor isn’t descending into madness while watching his sons suffer, but coming up with ways to ease their torment instead. He is dealing with this new crisis is a productive and positive way. This is a huge step forward for him.

The other thought I had is that Feanor is pretty much universally hated by the elves now. They saw him at his worst and judge him based almost entirely on what he did in the grip of madness. Feanor getting reborn and being handed the position of king/leader of the rebellion on a silver platter will feel unearned and will cheapen the story, I think. He is the most hated elf in Arda, it’s unrealistic that the Noldor would agree to follow him again (apart from a select few, i.e. Erestor). He has to be redeemed in the eyes of the elves first. By taking the “crimes” of the other Noldor onto his own scales, he becomes a Savior-like figure. If (when?) the Noldor find out about this, their opinion of Feanor will have to change, since the Feanor who willingly submitted to torture for three Ages of the world for the sake of his people is very different from Feanor the madman. So, yes, I think the changes to these chapters work well both on their own and as a set up for things to come.

I wonder, what is the significance of Feanor sharing a chamber with the tormented souls? I was thinking maybe the fire of his spirit can help them heal, or something? Maybe they can be reborn as some sort of fire/elf hybrid, (loyal to Feanor who healed them, of course). And afterwards, they can join the fight against the Valar. After all, they have more reason than even the Noldor to hate the Valar. Then again, a “fire elf” is probably too video game-ish to fit into the world of Tolkien. It will be interesting to see what (if anything) you come up with for the souls of the elves that Morgoth maimed.

Fingolfin’s worry about Feanor is heart-breaking, but I can’t help thinking that Fingolfin still underestimates and doesn’t really understand Feanor. Can’t really blame him, though - despite Feanor’s dislike of masks, he keeps his secrets very close to his heart and actually seems like a pretty difficult person to read.

You’re not planning on making Feanor insane from the torture, are you? I don’t think I will be able to handle that. Hmm… maybe the torture would strengthen Feanor’s spirit instead? I mean, they are pulling parts of his spirit away and he heals himself by reattaching them. It’s almost like exercising a muscle. So him getting stronger could be an unexpected side effect of the torture? And Feanor has to get significantly stronger to have a chance against the Valar. I mean, the Valar won’t be defeated by a random company of elven archers. Each Vala will have to be killed in a one-on-one duel, most likely. But the Valar are so overpowered, I really don’t know how this can be done believably.

Also, the Valar are horrible and these chapters reminded me just how much I dislike them (both in canon and in this story). Hmm… I wonder, even if the elves defeat the Valar, will the Valar still have the ability to resurrect themselves after a period of time (say, a thousand years)? I suppose they will have to be killed again… and again… and again. Unless the elves figure out a way to trap the Valar’s souls and prevent their rebirth, maybe by locking them up in Mandos’ Halls? Ah, the irony... But I also like the idea of the Halls being destroyed, since they are a symbol of the Valar’s oppression.

Anyway, the Price universe is great and I cannot wait to read what happens when everyone is reborn. Thank you so much for writing these wonderful stories. Tolkien’s world has a lot of potential, and he will always be the creator who came up with all these incredible characters and plot points, but (for me) the story he wrote is just too dark. I simply cannot handle all that misery without even a ray of hope at the end. It took me forever to finish reading the Silmarillion because I had to keep putting it down, and sometimes it took me months to get over the latest horror and get back to reading. Also, the sexism and racism, as well as the pretty blatant disapproval of scientific/technological advancement that crop up in canon bothered me. Yeah… after trudging through the mire of misery that is the Silmarillion, your stories were like a balm for my soul. Rather ironic, considering how much you torment those poor elves!

Thanks again and best of luck!

Author's Response:

Thank you so much for the review, merwinem!  Yes, as you saw, I have been doing some editing/re-writing, and still have lots more ahead :)

I loved the idea of the scales! This is definitely something the Valar would do – focus on the bad actions of a person and completely ignore the good ones. It is such a parody of justice.

Yay!  I am glad you liked them.  I didn’t do much thinking about the Valar as individuals when I started writing this long-ass story, so my interpretation of them has shifted over the years.  I want them to be less classical evil bad-guys.  I like the idea of them 100% believing that they are the good guys and are still carrying out Eru’s will, and cannot see what they had become.  This fits for Mandos and Manwe and some of the others, but I also like the idea that other of the Valar have grown bored with the Children, and just want to ignore everything but their own wants.  They simply don’t care enough to do anything about Morgoth.

I loved you comments about Feanor, they are so spot on!

“But he has to grow quite a bit in order to become the king he is meant to be…. He is taking responsibility for his actions and, most importantly, showing compassion (something the Valar clearly lack) for his people. He is beginning to realize that being a leader is not just shouting orders and leading men into battle, but also caring for those who follow him (all of them, not just the ones he likes). I think this is very significant character growth. After all, when Finwe was killed, Feanor’s own grief was all-consuming and he really wasn’t concerned with his people’s horror at their king’s death and the darkening (which is why the majority of the Noldor followed Fingolfin in the first place).

I agree with you so much that Feanor needed this character development.  I think that the potential was always there inside him to be the kind of a leader who put others first (I am thinking specifically about how he considered sacrificing the Silmarils/his life for the good of Valinor, the people he didn’t like and the ones he did.  He seriously considered it, and that’s pretty damn amazing).  Feanor’s inability to respect others who do not share his beliefs is probably his worst flaw, and what would make him a poor king.  He also is ruled by his emotions, he is such a passionate person, that he feels everything to the extreme, including grief.  I don’t actually blame him for not stepping up as a true king of the Noldor after Finwe’s death, because not everyone was born to be a king the way Fingolfin was, and Feanor being overwhelmed by his feels is just who he is as a person, and I doubt his response to grief or love or guilt or anger is going to change all that much.  He is always going to be driven by his passions, however, if he has learned one thing from how much he failed after Finwe’s death, it is how dangerous his passions can be when left unchecked.  He is going to be afraid of himself/his passions for a while after he is reborn, I think, and he will never let himself loose himself like he did again.

“The other thought I had is that Feanor is pretty much universally hated by the elves now. They saw him at his worst and judge him based almost entirely on what he did in the grip of madness. Feanor getting reborn and being handed the position of king/leader of the rebellion on a silver platter will feel unearned and will cheapen the story, I think. He is the most hated elf in Arda, it’s unrealistic that the Noldor would agree to follow him again (apart from a select few, i.e. Erestor). He has to be redeemed in the eyes of the elves first. By taking the “crimes” of the other Noldor onto his own scales, he becomes a Savior-like figure. If (when?) the Noldor find out about this, their opinion of Feanor will have to change, since the Feanor who willingly submitted to torture for three Ages of the world for the sake of his people is very different from Feanor the madman. So, yes, I think the changes to these chapters work well both on their own and as a set up for things to come.

Yes!  You are so right!  Feanor is not going to be able to just waltz in and take the High Kingship.  He is hated WAY too much.  It would cause a civil war between the Noldor, something they absolutely cannot afford.  I am actually thinking tho, that his sacrifice in Mandos will not be known for a while.  He’s not the type to brag about that kind of thing, and furthermore, he’d consider it no more than what he deserved after what he’d done.  Fingolfin is going to be king, and Feanor is going to have to learn how to deal with that :grins:

Ultimately, I plan to have a joint kingship between the two, as I think that is the ideal.  They both have the strengths the other lacks, and the other’s strengths fill in their weaknesses.  Fingolfin is a wonderful protector of their people, and ruler, but he also suffers from depression, and has most of his life, and he also lacks vision.  Feanor, ruled by his passions, needs Fingolfin at his side, but he is also full of the vision and hope and fire that Fingolfin needs.  Once they can learn to work together, they will make a killer team :)

“I wonder, what is the significance of Feanor sharing a chamber with the tormented souls? I was thinking maybe the fire of his spirit can help them heal, or something? Maybe they can be reborn as some sort of fire/elf hybrid, (loyal to Feanor who healed them, of course). And afterwards, they can join the fight against the Valar. After all, they have more reason than even the Noldor to hate the Valar. Then again, a “fire elf” is probably too video game-ish to fit into the world of Tolkien. It will be interesting to see what (if anything) you come up with for the souls of the elves that Morgoth maimed. 

Hm….I admit, I hadn’t given enough thought to the tormented souls… I do really love the idea of them being reborn tho.  Tho I think I’d want to make them Elves again.  See, I don’t think the Orcs had souls, not the ones that were born Orcs.  These tormented souls are captured Elves who were twisted into the first Orcs.  When they are reborn they will remember not only the horror they lived through and committed, but what they had once been before they were twisted.  I am really loving this idea, thank you!  I also like the idea of them being loyal to Feanor and seeing him as their savior.  I think it indeed the light of his fire that helped them regain that which had been broken in them. 

You’re not planning on making Feanor insane from the torture, are you?

No, don’t worry!  I couldn’t handle that either!  I think, like you, that the torture, and how he has to keep remaking himself/re-centering himself on what is most important to him, will not only make him stronger in his <i>fea</i>, but shape his view of the world after he is reborn too.    I think a lot of the things that used to really get under his skin, like people he didn’t like, will seem such a small, insignificant thing to have been worked up about now.  (But I think the same can be said for a lot of re-born Elves.  Even a lot of the Elves who are still living but have been dragged over the whetstone of Ages.  The Noldor as a whole, have became such a different people than who they ones were….or at least those who stuck it out in Middle-Earth, staying through the Second Age, have changed and grown.  A lot of that has to do with what a phenomenal king Gil-galad was, but also how they themselves grew and healed as a people.  But then, there are Noldor who never left Valinor, and those that returned after the First Age and never really learned to live with what they had done (I am thinking about the Gondolin Elves who left without ever facing the facts of their own crimes, and are still clinging to the belief that they were justified in their oppression of the Silvan).

Also, the Valar are horrible and these chapters reminded me just how much I dislike them (both in canon and in this story). Hmm… I wonder, even if the elves defeat the Valar, will the Valar still have the ability to resurrect themselves after a period of time (say, a thousand years)? I suppose they will have to be killed again… and again… and again. Unless the elves figure out a way to trap the Valar’s souls and prevent their rebirth, maybe by locking them up in Mandos’ Halls? Ah, the irony... But I also like the idea of the Halls being destroyed, since they are a symbol of the Valar’s oppression.

I am not going to spoil the final battle :zips mouth:  I am so terrible at keeping secrets lol but for this I am determined not to spill the beans!

“Anyway, the Price universe is great and I cannot wait to read what happens when everyone is reborn. Thank you so much for writing these wonderful stories. 

Thank you :hugs:

Yeah… after trudging through the mire of misery that is the Silmarillion, your stories were like a balm for my soul. Rather ironic, considering how much you torment those poor elves!

Lol!  But I know what you mean about the Silmarillon being too depressing to handle.  It really is the lack of hope.  There is no ‘fix it’ at the end.  There is only eternity in the Halls, or rebirth to, what?  What is that Valinor those Elves will be reborn to Ages into the future?  Because I very much doubt it would look anything like home.  In fact, I imagine a whole lot of condemnation for Feanorions and those who followed them, and Maeglin too of course.  And what welcome awaits those Silvan or Avari ect who sail?  I imagine they probably built some city out in the wilderness and didn’t interact with the other Elves at all.  It’s all sad and depressing, I think.  I much prefer what I have planned lol

 

Thank you so much for the review.  It was absolutely lovely :)



Name: hauntedpoem (Signed) · Date: June 18, 2017 20:40 · For: Chapter 44

Dear Encairion,

Hi! It's been a while... I did read your replies but somehow I couldn't really push myself to read on... on to the next chapter. It's going to be hard but somehow I will give it a go tonight, knowing that every time I start reading something I don't let it go until some sort of reprieve has been reached. :)

It would be awesome to have these works from Price of vengeance on ao3. 

I wish you all the best!



Author's Response:

Hi!  It’s good to hear from you :)  I hope you are doing well!

“I couldn't really push myself to read on... on to the next chapter. It's going to be hard but somehow I will give it a go tonight…”

I am sorry the story is dragging you down.  There is a lot of darkness in it, that is the truth.  It is the first age, and every one pretty much dies (tho I don’t help the tragedy of the first age at all by making the characters suffer so much first!).

“It would be awesome to have these works from Price of vengeance on ao3.”

I am actually getting ready to do so.  I’ve been going through the story and editing/re-writing parts.  I still have more to go, I’ve only made it up to the start of Maeglin’s story, which I want to do a lot of changes for.  I want to write something from Aredhel’s POV, and change some things about Maeglin and Idril’s relationship, as well as other things.  And if you are on ch 44, you are on the cusp of launching into Finrod, Curufin, and Nargothrond.  I need to seriously re-work those first few chapters :sighs:  But once I have it edited to my liking, I will post it on AO3. (If you are interested, I re-wrote Feanor and Fingolfin’s time in Mandos (chapter 17 and Rage, rage ect).  That is the most major change I’ve made so far).

 

Thank you for continuing with the story, even tho it is a hard read.  And thank you for the review!!



Name: hauntedpoem (Signed) · Date: April 17, 2017 0:38 · For: Chapter 44

I think that it is only fair to continue leaving my impressions, just in case they flee from my mind. 

I took a break and I will continue after the "feels" calm down.

It is quite hard not get emotionally involved in a story, it's difficult to be the dispassionate observer who nods and hums and sometimes scrunches their nose but other than that is fine with whatever happens. I have braced myself!  I think that the worst has passed since I have a soft spot for Maglor's character, for Glorfindel and for Maeglin.

Until now!

But actually, I am a huge Maglor and Maeglin fan. For Maglor: who knows what happened to him? and for Maeglin: traumatic past leads to misplaced affection, leads to a nice 'like father, like son' scenario with a twist. I love Maglor: what made him so special not to throw himself off a cliff after the whole Silmaril debacle? I love Maeglin: I see this tortured goth-like "dude" who happens to develop crushes at the slight sign of niceness from a  stranger.

And Glorfindel- thanks to your fic, a shitton of badfic representations have been erased from my mind. Thank you, author! It is the first time when I exhale in relief, for this Glorfindel is not the hot macho with a  short fuse and 'awesome' hair, he isn't the selfish rapist of underage elves that justifies his abuse as love and desire, he isn't the typical army guy who forces his attention on unsuspecting and shy scribes or loremasters or any library mice as opposed to hot army swordsmen with again, 'awesome' hair. And I am also glad he isn't a "vala" with indisputable sexual prowess. I am glad he isn't all hair, brawn and penis. 

Instead, you got to write this amazingly complex and conflicted character, a boy who grew into a man who would rather dress as a woman. but again... society! I love his sensitivity, his resilience, his ingenuity and his innocence. Glorfindel is innocent, yet he's been twisted and tormented and made to doubt the possibilities of having a good life. He blames himself yet he not to blame for, he is starved for affection, he needs someone to touch him without disgust (as Irime did), he needs more than avuncular affection and his cousin's eternal reminder that it's okay to be different but he should be careful when and where to be different.

Tbh, I did not like Fingolfin. I did not like Turgon either and no, I don't pity him just because he's become a block of ice ever since he lost Elenwe. Turgon is a weak man and I am glad you wrote Celebrimbor facing him and showing him he's still to be afraid of a Feanorion.

Fingolfin didn't seem to have evolved much from the one in "the revolutionary...". He is kind, fair, just, understanding and patient. Yet... when it comes to Glorfindel... he gives reason to be doubted. He is a liar, he is a politician, he is hiding in plain sight. And neither Maedhros, nor Fingon, nor Fingolfin, can show Glorfindel that what he is, what he desires, is not bad and dirty. In fact, their complacency and reputation are used to get what they desire. They get it, and they get to have discretion.

Fingon is another interesting one. I think Maedhros is a hundred times more 'real' than he is. 

And what did you do to Galadriel... I cannot even think about it... How... what... why?

I admit reading male slash is easier. Women are difficult to capture in a character, especially if you're a woman and I wish there were more women in the Silm. I wish there were more women with a voice and a name and a worthy story. Not just wives, and mothers and sisters. But women, autonomous.

Idril- wow. Just wow. Your characterization of her is amazing. She is a beautifully twisted vine. A bird in a gilded cage. Her shortcomings and her naivete, her beauty and the ignorance of her spirit create indeed a very compelling character.

Aredhel- I would define her as bipolar. Mood swings, highs and lows, inability to be happy and pleased with anything, recklessness... mania and depression (lying in bed, sleeping all day, ignoring her family)... now I wonder... are any of these women NORMAL in this fic? Galadriel  seems to me a control freak, a shard of ice with a will of iron, Irime- the crazy homophobic mother, Aredhel the one that needs lithium, Idril- superficial girl maturing into a well-intentioned yet blind supporter of causes (I almost cheered for her activism, reminding me of Hermione's SPEW, but where Hermione is both empathetic and intelligent, Idril is a pale imitation of those things)- she loves her son, Earendil and she has shit taste in men and that's enough for Idril.

*that's my opinion and trust me, I enjoyed riding the waves of these characters.

Oh Maeglin- from wolf to mole. I just loved reading about the cesspool that is Gondolin, a city like a birdcage, a pretty prison.

And I loved reading about Nan Elmoth, although I acknowledge that the "alpha-beta-omega" dynamics are a bit of an unrealistic thing but thumbs up for fiction! Even in the real world, this whole thing is misunderstood and it is associated with the guy/gal that gets to have more sex than the average and marginally, I'd say, with wolf packs but in ethology, the ABO dynamics are more prevalent in primates, not wolves. Only captive wolves display ABO dynamics. That being said, I understand that the cruelty and animalism displayed in the barbaric Nan Elmoth hierarchy was necessary to produce a certain Maeglin type. It is too bad that rape became a word associated too often with his character. You really conflicted me with Eol's death, but only for a bit, i got over it.

Somehow, you portrayed Maeglin as a more sympathetic character than I expected. My thanks there!

(In my imagination, I hoped Glorfindel will be closer to Maeglin).

And I don't know why, I got the impression that Echthelion died while escorting Irime and Aredhel.

* How could I forget about the eagle-elves. Wow... even I don't want to know about their procreation but I have to say, I found the idea fascinating.

Celegorm wanting to bed Maeglin- wow! at least he wouldn't have died a virgin. (because multiple butt rape does not qualify as having had a love life).

Tuor- you could have added that he was able to shit gold and I wouldn't have liked him anymore. Honestly, I think idril and Tuor deserve each other... in the worst possible way.

As for Morgoth+ Sauron torturing Maeglin- wow! That reason was the best. Gondolin needed to burn- catharsis- Gondolin was beyond salvation. What you presented- the secret tunnels- were really a selfish thing that the aristocracy and those wielding power made use of at the expense of the general population and the 'slaves'. They were meant for the rich, not for the poor, a secret path destined for the royals to escape through, leaving the others to burn alive and die in unimaginable pain. So no, no tears for Gondolin. 

 

 



Author's Response:

“It is quite hard not get emotionally involved in a story, it's difficult to be the dispassionate observer who nods and hums and sometimes scrunches their nose but other than that is fine with whatever happens. I have braced myself!”

Good.  It’s the best when a story completely draws you in and you can’t put it down.  If a story doesn’t spark some kind of emotion in me than I will just stop reading it.

“But actually, I am a huge Maglor and Maeglin fan. For Maglor: who knows what happened to him? and for Maeglin: traumatic past leads to misplaced affection, leads to a nice 'like father, like son' scenario with a twist. I love Maglor: what made him so special not to throw himself off a cliff after the whole Silmaril debacle? I love Maeglin: I see this tortured goth-like "dude" who happens to develop crushes at the slight sign of niceness from a  stranger.

I love complicated characters, and Maeglin and Maglor fit the bill for sure!  I think that’s why I love the Tolkien world so much, especially the grey characters, they are by far the most interesting :) 

“And Glorfindel- thanks to your fic, a shitton of badfic representations have been erased from my mind. Thank you, author! It is the first time when I exhale in relief, for this Glorfindel is not the hot macho with a  short fuse and 'awesome' hair, he isn't the selfish rapist of underage elves that justifies his abuse as love and desire, he isn't the typical army guy who forces his attention on unsuspecting and shy scribes or loremasters or any library mice as opposed to hot army swordsmen with again, 'awesome' hair. And I am also glad he isn't a "vala" with indisputable sexual prowess. I am glad he isn't all hair, brawn and penis. 

Hahaha I’ve read a lot of those characterizations of him too.  There are like a million fics with him paired with Erestor which characterize him like this.  I can see how he could be characterized as a typical soldier with more bravery then cleverness tho because of the whole belrog thing.  But he’s such a wise and noble warrior in the lotr (and he put bells on his horses’ mane, come on lol).

I am glad to hear how much you enjoyed Glorfindel in the story.  I have such a huge soft spot for him :)

“Fingolfin didn't seem to have evolved much from the one in "the revolutionary...". He is kind, fair, just, understanding and patient. Yet... when it comes to Glorfindel... he gives reason to be doubted. He is a liar, he is a politician, he is hiding in plain sight.”

I have noticed that readers of the revolutionary tend to like either Feanor or Fingolfin more.  Only a few like both.  It’s interesting that you found him to be a liar….he’s defiantly a politician, that’s for sure….hmm….I guess I can see it.  He hides himself from all but those closest to him, and I suppose that is its own brand of lying.

“And what did you do to Galadriel... I cannot even think about it... How... what... why?

Ah, Galadriel.  To me, she is quite the ambitious creature during the First and Second Ages.  She has a lot of character development to go.  She is a lot like Irime in her way because she lives in a man’s world and claws against that fate, and yet is selfish and ambitious, but not a monster.  She is not nearly as bad as Irime for she does love Celebrain (though I will leave you to read of their relationship in the next book :)).  I think….Galadriel needs to face herself, look into the mirror as it were, and confront her own faults before she can find wisdom.

“Aredhel- I would define her as bipolar. Mood swings, highs and lows, inability to be happy and pleased with anything, recklessness... mania and depression (lying in bed, sleeping all day, ignoring her family)... “

Yes, she is defiantly bipolar, and I’d say suffered from depression after Maeglin’s birth.  Eol and her were not a good match at all, and as Aredhel told Maeglin: she never wanted children.  She was not a good mother, but Eol was not a good father either, and both were toxic to each other.

are any of these women NORMAL in this fic?

Ah.  Well.  It is, like you said, difficult to write female characters.  At least for me.  There are a few I’ve written that I like and have compassion for (usually OCs, to be honest).  I have little love for most of the women in Tolkien.  They so often are either portrayed as saints or boring.  Eowyn is without a doubt my fav female character in Tolkien.  But Aredhel has grown on me a lot since I wrote her in Vengeance 1.  (I am afraid you are going to HATE my portrayal of Luthian (I think you mentioned you liked her?)).

“And I loved reading about Nan Elmoth, although I acknowledge that the "alpha-beta-omega" dynamics are a bit of an unrealistic thing but thumbs up for fiction!

That was defiantly an experiment on my part (that same with the eagle-elves).  Hey, it’s fan fiction, might as well experiment :D  I will say though for Nan Elmoth that there is nothing biological about the alpha-beta-omega dynamics (I have seen fics where it is biological).  It’s a cultural thing they chose to adopt instead of any real governing body or leadership figure.  It is their way of keeping order.  But as I know little of what the actually dynamics of a wolf pack are, I can easily believe I messed it up :D

“Somehow, you portrayed Maeglin as a more sympathetic character than I expected. My thanks there!

I think sometimes that I made him TOO sympathetic and erased all his responsibility for what happened.  I overcompensated for all the times I’ve seen him portrayed as an evil little shit where people seem to conveniently forget he was almost assuredly tortured to some degree.

“(In my imagination, I hoped Glorfindel will be closer to Maeglin).

I wished for this so badly too, you have no idea!  And yet, if they had I couldn’t see things going down as they did.

“And I don't know why, I got the impression that Echthelion died while escorting Irime and Aredhel.

I am pretty sure he was credited with killing the king of the Belrogs when Gondolin fell….with his helmet or something?  And they fell into a fountain?  (I didn’t write him as a very nice fellow here either because I am a sadist when it comes to Glorfindel and didn’t give him any real friends lol).

“Tuor- you could have added that he was able to shit gold and I wouldn't have liked him anymore. Honestly, I think idril and Tuor deserve each other... in the worst possible way.

Yep, pretty much.  Though I do acknowledged that his time as a slave for the Easterlings really fucked with his head.  He was one of those people who had been abused and then turned into the abuser.

 

Thank you so much for the time you took to give me such a great review!  I loved hearing your thoughts on the characters :)



Name: hauntedpoem (Signed) · Date: April 16, 2017 23:37 · For: Chapter 3

I think I completed "The revolutionary...". In fact, I was captivated by the story. If it is of any help, I wished to comment as i read but the compulsion to know what's next was too great. It was a page-turner.

I am reading this one and I get the same feeling of urgency. 

I have to applaud your ability to master several narratives. The moment they connect and the development of each and every one of them points out your talent for a good, consistent and satisfactory work.

I do understand now your use of Sindarized names. It was no critique of mine, just a curiosity but I have to confess, using the same names through the story (and wow, this one is long!) it is easier for the readers, not to mention how bothersome all the accents and symbols can be.

(also, I am new to this site and I am a bit unaccustomed with the whole layout... almost forgot to log in to reply)

I wonder, do you have a beta? Or do you work all by yourself? This fic is a mammoth! When did you write it? How long did it take you? Did you write every day? Do you have a schedule for writing?

Writing and writers - I find fascinating. I always feel the need to know the person ( the mind) behind the story that captivated me for hours until I decided sleep and daily activities were necessary.(I binge reading, especially on weekends)

Yours is the kind of story/ series that fits the world-building-profile. I like how every story from the arc/series completes the other. It's like an immense puzzle and i swear, it is overwhelming. I found myself enraptured while reading and all I wanted to do was read-read-read until i finished it. It did take a toll, psychologically, even for a reader. I can only imagine the outpouring you've been subjected to as a writer.

However, I am so happy this fic exists!!!

Woo-hoo!

I’m curious to hear your thoughts on Irime now you’ve finished reading her story.

R: oh wow! I learnt many lessons since I have started reading fics. I have learned even more since I have started investing in literature, anyway.

one of those things is: try to understand.

I do not judge the characters. I admire writers who can give them comples, various, multi-tonal voices and a range of perspectives. I am not a fan of single-trait characters and balzacianism. I like to read "humane" (in this case- elvish) characters, caught in grey areas, always willing to strive for more or desist or completely efface themselves from existence.

So about Irime- all I can say is that I get her. I do complain from time to time of a scarcity of women portrayed in Tolkien's works (mothers are mostly non existent, daughters are textual ghosts or they die without accomplishing much, one or two prove themselves: Luthien, Galadriel). So I guess, Irime was necessary in this fic. She is desperation, outrage, narcissism, she is an instrument, she is evil, she loves too much, she doesn't love herself, she loves herself too much, she is a paradox, two dragons fighting in a woman. She lives in a man's world and she desires. She is greedy, selfish, disgusting and manstrous, manipulative and cold. She is fucking desperate not to become a speck of dust  but that's exactly what she becomes. She fears her 'fate'. She feels she has no other choice between whore and saint. 

I loved your creation of poincidis, btw.

Irime is pathological yet... the only thing that makes her bearable is that I understood where she was coming from and that's thanks to you, for writing it. Again, psychologically, she reminds me of the Cluster b personality types, the borderlines and the narcissists, sometime sthe bipolar (although I will reserve that for Aredhel). I cannot condone her homophobia. It is one of her most dehumanizing aspects.

except for what she did to Glorfidnel. - I was only beginning to read your fic and honestly... you know what I kept waiting and waiting for? some form of redemptive act from her. I waited for Irime to recognize her wrong, to open her eyes, to walk in her son's shoes. But no. She was too slow, too late, too wrapped up in her own agenda to actually be a parent. 

Yet I prefer her to Elenwe. Totes!

I don't know why, but she rebells against her 'fate'. And that's admirable in a racist, sexist world like that.

*Applause for the vermin of Gondolin, but hopefully, I won't run out of fuel and I'll comment on that in another reply.

I think that I encountered "Irime's type" in your other fic "the revolutionary..." through Indis. I think I had the same reaction. Well, almost. Although Indis was more politically oriented, more avid for position and power through politics. Irime, in this fic is more interested in "love", in having someone to look upon her with adoration. She is needy like a black hole. And she's a product of her world, of the twisted society.

*Applause for not seeing the world in black-white shades. Truly! I never thought (not one bit) that the 'good' characters were right and the 'bad' ones were wrong.

 

I could have understood everything else, but not her abuse of him.  What she did to him never left him. -  She did. One thing she failed to do  was own her act. Things would have been different if she threw her pride away and just endured, almost like a "poincidis".

Her pride killed her, her 'I know better" killed her, her absurd expectations (Maglor would beg forgiveness on his knees) and her desire to keep appearances at all cost killed her. She learns but not fast enough and she has a lot of resistance for the world around her (you made this 'break rather than bend' attitude typical of the Finweions).

She killed her son's love for her. She is a toxic parent, a poisoned vine but she is the product of her mother and father, of her brothers, of the society. She wanted to shoot for the stars yet she burned herself to a crisp.

She tries to redeem herself. But too slow. It is as if she has to change her whole belief system, her whole thought process.  

I have empathy for a number of the women in the series who had to grow up there, but for Irime my understanding ending when she pumped that poison into her son.- agree! However, she is the perfect example of a disordered personality. She's a cold, manipulative, self-serving woman who uses her power of seduction on her nephew, uses his youth and curiosity and his sexual desire to obtain something that she thinks she needs. On the other hand, she is an adultress. She has little respect for her husband, yet she entered the marriage knowing very well what to expect from a boring Vanya. She has sacrificed her soul's innocence for gain and she has paid ever since. although I am accustomed to "that Valinor" from your previous fic, I cannot blame it entirely on society. A disordered Irime only sees her son as a representative of her, as an extensin, an appliance, if you will. Glorfindel serves a purpose. He is her cover, he is the hand with which she scratches her itch, he is her narcissistic supply, he is to be her minion - when she got caught in bed with Maglor she manipulated her son into keeping her secrets for her. 

And the image of a boy in front of a mirror- not only disturbing... but a sign of his mother's decaying soul. yes, she is a monster.

 



Author's Response:

Oh wow, this is such an incredible analysis of Irime’s character!  I really loved reading it.  It was like seeing her in a more in-depth light :)

I wonder, do you have a beta? Or do you work all by yourself? This fic is a mammoth! When did you write it? How long did it take you? Did you write every day? Do you have a schedule for writing?

Writing and writers - I find fascinating. I always feel the need to know the person ( the mind) behind the story that captivated me for hours until I decided sleep and daily activities were necessary.(I binge reading, especially on weekends)”

You are making me shy :)  I really don’t think there is much interesting to tell about me; I am a total binge-reader too, and writer.   I don’t have any kind of writing schedule.  I am actually terrible about it.  I am a bit of an obsessive personality, so I will write like a crazy person every chance I get for a few weeks/months and then burn out for months at a time.  It has taken me years to write this series.  Years.  I have no beta (I wouldn’t make someone try to put up with my crazy writing ways lol), so yes, I do all of the work myself but as we have no doubt noticed my editing is not always the best :)  I love writing best for huge chunks of time that can really get me into the scene, because I fall really deeply.  When I am writing it’s always like reading a story because it’s so clear in my head (but it’s a lot more work :)).  I am not good though with forcing myself to write through blocks.  If I don’t want to write, I usually just don’t.  While writing is a lot of work, it’s also a joy to me and I don’t want to taint that by turning it into a drudgery.

Yours is the kind of story/ series that fits the world-building-profile. I like how every story from the arc/series completes the other. It's like an immense puzzle and i swear, it is overwhelming. I found myself enraptured while reading and all I wanted to do was read-read-read until i finished it.”

This is the best compliment to receive as a writing, because those stories that I can’t put down are always my favorite too (I think that goes for most people), and to hear I was able to invoke that kind of mesmerized interest is the best feeling in the world!

“It did take a toll, psychologically, even for a reader. I can only imagine the outpouring you've been subjected to as a writer.”

Well, I think it wasn’t as noticeable for me because I wrote it over such a long span of time.  There are scenes that are especially memorable for the wreck they left me in, and some characters that I found drained me emotionally to write, but I think it would be quite a different experience if I went back through the story as a read now and read the whole thing through.

I am going to read over your anylisis of Irime many more times because it is just so good.  I especially liked this: She is fucking desperate not to become a speck of dust  but that's exactly what she becomes. 

This exactly.

except for what she did to Glorfidnel. - I was only beginning to read your fic and honestly... you know what I kept waiting and waiting for? some form of redemptive act from her. I waited for Irime to recognize her wrong, to open her eyes, to walk in her son's shoes. But no. She was too slow, too late, too wrapped up in her own agenda to actually be a parent. “

Yeah, she never does get her redemption through Glorfindel (and that’s because I don’t think it could have ever felt like anything but her using him once again, only this time to try and feel like a decent person).  I don’t think they could have ever had a relationship.  Sometimes the waters are just too toxic with the past to ever clear.  If you read book 2 of the series you will see Glorfindel reborn.  What happens to him and how he deals with what Irime did I will leave unspoiled :)

She does get a tinny bit of redemption in The Price of Duty (that story was actually the first I wrote in this series a way way long time ago).  I wouldn’t say it absolves her of anything, but we do see her TRYING, and I guess that’s all that one can hope for in a person: for them to at least try to be a better person.

“I think that I encountered "Irime's type" in your other fic "the revolutionary..." through Indis. I think I had the same reaction. Well, almost. Although Indis was more politically oriented, more avid for position and power through politics. Irime, in this fic is more interested in "love", in having someone to look upon her with adoration. She is needy like a black hole. And she's a product of her world, of the twisted society.”

Oh I am glad you saw the parallels between Irime and Indis’ characters!  I actually think it was Indis who shaped Irime into the woman she became.  We know how messed up Finwe, Indis, and Miriel’s parenting was for the boys and the kind of scars it left on them, and I think the same can be said for Irime.  She grew up in that same household. 

I also agree that Indis was motivated by political ambition where Irime was desperate for adoration (she especially wanted to be the one ‘loved’ more by those she perceived as dismissive of her).

“*Applause for not seeing the world in black-white shades. Truly! I never thought (not one bit) that the 'good' characters were right and the 'bad' ones were wrong.”

This is always such a good thing to hear!  I adore complex characters myself, so it is one of my biggest goals to try and create them in my writing (I don’t always succeed, but here’s to trying!).

 

….gosh I am just re-reading what you wrote (yet again!) and it’s just such a great analysis.  I want to hug it lol.  Thank you for this gift :)



Name: hauntedpoem (Signed) · Date: April 16, 2017 11:43 · For: Chapter 44
I have so many feelings right now. i don't know what exactly to say, besides my words of praise.
I have felt compelled to write my thoughts after reading each chapter until the 54th and i couldn't stop it. I needed to know what was going to happen next, even though I theoretically know what happened in canon Tolkien.
I began reading and the focus on Glorfindel kind of took over. Then you reached nan Elmoth with your storyline and we followed Maeglin.
and in between, you opened windows into each and every character.
it's just... amazing, intricate and passionate work. whoa re you and how do you manage all this? i broke down crying every five minutes or so... T_T

Author's Response:

Gosh, I’m wearing a huge grinning after reading this!  It totally made my day!  Thank you so much!

“I began reading and the focus on Glorfindel kind of took over. Then you reached nan Elmoth with your storyline and we followed Maeglin.

Oh, oh, oh you like Maeglin and Glorfindel!  Yay :fist punch:  Those are two of my favs.  It makes me so giddy when I hear other people like them, especially Maeglin because he doesn’t get much love :)

“whoa re you and how do you manage all this?”

Lol just a normal girl with a dramatic imagination :grins:

“ i broke down crying every five minutes or so... T_T

I couldn’t stop myself from laughing when I read this because I remembered the ridiculous amount of times I was crying while writing!  Man, this is giving me a itch to write again….there’s really nothing like the riot of emotions it stirs up!

I hope you continue to enjoy the story!

 

 



Name: hauntedpoem (Signed) · Date: April 13, 2017 8:07 · For: Chapter 3
Again, after reading 'the revolutionary and the usurper', I am amazed at your work, at how detailed and careful it is constructed, at how much time is poured into every chapter.I do love baby Glorfindel and I root for him. I know his mother is afraid and tortured by guilt and the expectations of the religious society... I can only empathise with her but poor Glorfindel, he is innocent and does not understand what bothers his mother.
as for Irime... wow. I do not wish to see her as a victim but she is trapped, not only by the marriage but by her own mind. I feel really sorry for her and i like how you did not stop to a one-dimensional aspect of her character. She speaks the fears of any female trapped in codepenency and groomed to serve the political purposes of her father. I can only hope she escapes and she does not succumbs to becoming a monster dominated by fera and guilt.
you may want to remedy this, I think you meant 'conscience':
-a bothersome conscious had no more
-She wanted her conscious to fall
*
also, does this fic share anything with "the revolutionary and the usurper"? I've only reached chapter 3 and I already wonder about some things... (like what about fingolfin and feanor?)
also, I couldn't help but notice that the characters use the sindarized form of their names. is there a reason for that? (i am just curious)

Author's Response:

Thank you so much for reading and reviewing this story!  I didn’t know if you were going to continue the series for sure, and so it made me really happy to see you have :)

“I do love baby Glorfindel and I root for him. I know his mother is afraid and tortured by guilt and the expectations of the religious society... I can only empathise with her but poor Glorfindel, he is innocent and does not understand what bothers his mother.
as for Irime... wow. I do not wish to see her as a victim but she is trapped, not only by the marriage but by her own mind. I feel really sorry for her and i like how you did not stop to a one-dimensional aspect of her character. She speaks the fears of any female trapped in codepenency and groomed to serve the political purposes of her father. I can only hope she escapes and she does not succumbs to becoming a monster dominated by fera and guilt.”

I’m curious to hear your thoughts on Irime now you’ve finished reading her story.  For myself, well, I would have understanding for her character because of all the excellent points you made, except for what she did to Glorfidnel.  I could have understood everything else, but not her abuse of him.  What she did to him never left him.  She scared him for life.

I do like the points you made about the society she grew up in.  It was really toxic in Valinor.  I have empathy for a number of the women in the series who had to grow up there, but for Irime my understanding ending when she pumped that poison into her son.

“you may want to remedy this, I think you meant 'conscience':
-a bothersome conscious had no more
-She wanted her conscious to fall 
*”

Thank you for pointing this out!  I will fix it :)

“also, I couldn't help but notice that the characters use the sindarized form of their names. is there a reason for that? (i am just curious)

Ah, well that’s because when I started writing this I wasn’t very familiar with their Quenya names (and I still get some of them mixed up).  I am used to thinking of them by their sindarized names, and I think using them in the story makes the story more…accessible to readers who aren’t Tolkien buffs :)

 

Thank you again for the lovely review :D



Name: Kalendeer (Signed) · Date: August 19, 2016 7:52 · For: Intermission: Rage, rage against the dying of the light, Part I

"This is really fascinating!  I am trying to imagine this and….it seems like it would be a spiritual merging?  Like they are connecting on a really deep level, far more intimate then sex, like the very essence of who they are are merging? "

That exactly!

"Ah, I understand now.  For me, I see empathy as the ability to actually feel another’s pain =.  Like if I were to listen to the story of someone’s abuse as a child, if I had sympathy for them, I would feel like that was a sad story, but I don’t feel the same depth of feeling like I do when I am being empathetic.  Someone who is empathetic, to me, is someone who really can think about what it would be like to be walking in the other’s shoes, to really feel another persons’ pain on a deep level.  Of course, this is all just my own view of these two words."

I think it would make Melkor all the more terrifying if he could really feel another persons' pain and just not care at all. I feel a bit the same for Irmo, who should be able to understand quite a lot, but isn't really associated with mercy. Perhaps the Ainur have a way of understanding others' feelings but to still be removed from them? I can totally picture Melkor understanding 90% of Fëanor and then laughing inside like "ah ah ah I'm going to mess you up so hard boy, it's going to be experiment of the year!".

And perhaps Melkor can understands but really likes to inflict pain anyway, so the empathy is working backward: he is able to put himself in most people's shoes, but instead of wanting to make them feel happy he likes to make them miserable instead. IDK, there are so many possibilites for Melkor, choosing one version over the others is always very hard.

"But, wow, reading that about how the Valar view Elves more like animals then equal beings…..I can totally see this.  It makes perfect sense.  It’s also downright horrifying, and makes me uncomfortable to think about to be honest.  Just…I think the captured Elves in Ultumno and the way Melkor picked them apart like insects, and just….I am really disturbed.  But I also really want to write a story on this too.  (There is that quote about how we should write what disturbs us that I think about a lot.  I actually do this a lot.)"

That story would be awesome *_* I feel like it's a great thing to include if well written, but as you said very disturbing and very hard to pull off properly. I'm not worried for you though, I'm not sure there is something that you actually can't write!

"I like that thought Naswë is going to be proved right about the Valar and how the Elves never should have trusted them, he also going to be a 3D character with flaws of his own.  To be honest though, him not acknowledging a child’s existence because of its parent’s choices is going to make me judge him hard.  (Doesn’t mean I won’t enjoy him as a character though, I have plenty of character who do shitty things, but I am still going to be giving him the stink-eye, especially if his behavior was ever apparent to Fingolfin.  :runs away with baby Fingolfin to raise in a cave where no one can ever hurt him again:  Now I am wondering how this will play out if he’s in Formenos when Feanor and Fingolfin come?  Ooooooo!  This could get really interesting!  I am curious about Fingolfin’s reaction to Naswë, but also Feanor’s.)"

Oh but Fingolfin knows, Naswë did this right to his face when he was a kid, that's why they saw each others only once in their whole life lol. I think Naswë was the monster under the bed when he was little, and that also (partly) explains why Fëanor isn't really on friendly terms with his uncle and doesn't really talk to him either. Naswë and your Fëanor actually share a lot of (bad) traits, including excessive stubborness and disregard for the opinion of others, though Naswë usually display this last trait by shrugging that he's not interested, your opinion is fine for you but hey look it's the time to go plant potatoes so talk to the wind, I'm not listening anymore. And I think Fëanor just stopped to talk to him because Naswë just has an habit of not listening to him *at all* once he decides he isn't interested, and being his uncle he is 100% immune to whatever charisma he can summon. If you know Parks and Recration, Naswë is Ron Swanson lol. He is very "old roman republican" in some ways, you build your house, manage your house, you don't spend your days wasting paper ranting about childish stuff, also what's all that jewelry and shiny clothes you can even craft by yourself?

I think the breaking point was Naswë saying something along the line of "Nephew why should I learn to write in Twengar? I use the sarati once a year to renew my fealthy to your idiotic father and that's one time too much already. Now do something useful, stop gaping and help me clean the dishes." That's when Fëanor ragequited from this attempt of a relationship XD

So I guess they will all be like: Fingolfin: "Alright Terrible Uncle is my new neighbour that's going to be nice." Fëanor: "I hate Fingolfin, Naswë hate Fingolfin, which one do I hate the most if I have to pick sides OMG what a dilemma they are both 100% aweful in their own ways and I'm going to die of boredome." Naswë: "Hey look that's my idiotic pedantic nephew and his invisible brother, let us pray they don't torch the whole valley to the ground with their silly fights."

Argh I need to stop talking about Naswë.



Author's Response:

And perhaps Melkor can understands but really likes to inflict pain anyway, so the empathy is working backward: he is able to put himself in most people's shoes, but instead of wanting to make them feel happy he likes to make them miserable instead. IDK, there are so many possibilites for Melkor, choosing one version over the others is always very hard.

That IS truly terrifying.  I find it really hard to wrap my mind around too…just…a person/being who can feel another’s pain and takes pleasure in inflicting pain, is…yeah, really terrifying.  I can understand a person who has little to no empathy doing terrible things easier then I can a person who KNOWS exactly how horrible what they are doing is but doing it anyway.  I think if Melkor is really like this, if he can really feel an Elf’s emotions/pain, then I cannot see him as anything but a monster.  I like thinking about what could have been had he been a little different from cannon, I like thinking about what could have happened then in Valinor if he had been more than the being of malice and jealousy and hate he seems to be in cannon, but this idea that he really has all this empathy and does what he does anyway is so disturbing to me! 

 I'm not sure there is something that you actually can't write!

You have not seen me try to write a humorous story!  That….would be a disaster.  I can just see me trying hard to make the plot funny, but me being me, suddenly what started off as funny (or at least an attempt at it) turns into angst :snorts:

“Oh but Fingolfin knows, Naswë did this right to his face when he was a kid, that's why they saw each others only once in their whole life lol. I think Naswë was the monster under the bed when he was little, 

Nooooo!  I was keeping my fingers crossed that Fingolfin didn’t know :(  It sounds like, though, that Finarfin (Irime or Findis in this story?) didn’t ever meet Naswë?

“I think the breaking point was Naswë saying something along the line of "Nephew why should I learn to write in Twengar? I use the sarati once a year to renew my fealthy to your idiotic father and that's one time too much already. Now do something useful, stop gaping and help me clean the dishes." That's when Fëanor ragequited from this attempt of a relationship XD

OMG.  Feanor would have not been able to STAND him lol  It is going to be very very interesting to see these three as neighbors!

“Fëanor: "I hate Fingolfin, Naswë hate Fingolfin, which one do I hate the most if I have to pick sides OMG what a dilemma they are both 100% aweful in their own ways and I'm going to die of boredome." 

 

This is going to be so awesome!  I’m hoping him and Fingolfin bound over this :)  Gosh, I am already makes up scene for a story I haven’t even read yet in my head lol  I can’t wait!



Name: Kalendeer (Signed) · Date: August 18, 2016 10:37 · For: Intermission: Rage, rage against the dying of the light, Part I

"Sorry, I am confussed on this.  When you said rain, I seriously thought first about the singer Rain.  Too much k-pop lol.  But I am having a mind blank.  Who’s rain?  Sorry, I am probably being really stupid here :face plant:"

Nah I am talking about water falling down from the sky, so rain. And basically every weather phenomenon that happens to mix the tags "sky" and "water" lol.

The whole Ulmo&Manwë&Melkor is there:

"And Ilúvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor
hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the
beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised
heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these
clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwë, thy friend, whom thou lovest.'


Then Ulmo answered: 'Truly, Water is become now fairer than my heart imagined, neither had my secret thought
conceived the snowflake, nor in all my music was contained the falling of the rain. I will seek Manwë, that he and I
may make melodies for ever to my delight!' And Manwë and Ulmo have from the beginning been allied, and in all
things have served most faithfully the purpose of Ilúvatar."

I find this part interesting because at this point, Melkor hasn't done anything wrong (appart from singing on his own and we all know that in Tolkienworld, submission is nice and revolt is not nice). We have two cases of Valar other than Ulmo doing *something* with water: Melkor, who creates Ice (and Ulmo likes ice) and Manwë, because rain/the clouds/mist are shared by Ulmo and Manwë. What is interesting is that Manwë isn't even Ulmo's choice but Iluvatar, and it's kinda unfair at this point for Melkor. If we consider the Ainulindalë as a biased text, then Ulmo's choice was passed down tot he elves by the Valar of Valinor, and we can question a LOT of things: is this part of the text a very tuned down version of Ulmo considering joining Melkor instead of Manwë? We know Ossë almost did, but was he truly alone in this or was Ulmo also confused about his allegiance at some point?

My current headcanon is that when two Valar's realms mingle, due to their nature, it can, sometimes, mean that there is some kind of a "sexual" relationship between them (because their nature mingle at some point and it's basically ainu-sex if you do that). So yep I think Manwë and Ulmo have some kind of thing going on, at a level that isn't really understood as such by the elves because it's really different from what *they* experience. Well I also have this headcanon that Manwë and Ulmo were meant to be together by Iluvatar, until Varda decided to dump Melkor for Manwë and messed up the whole plan. I read the "ice problem" as Melkor trying (and failing) to find another mate (Ulmo), but unfortunatly for him Iluvatar doesn't ship him with anyone lol (or perhaps Iluvatar shipped him with Fëanor, but if that's the case Fëanor was really born too late to be of any use there).

I also wondered if Nienna could have been intended as Melkor's mate. I don't remember which version came first but in one of the HoME, Nienna is listed as Melkor's sister rather than Mandos', and she was, at first, conceived as the Valië of winter and ice. Some of her attributions were later switched to Melkor and Nienna became a lot kinder, so I ruled that off but that's still possible. In my headcanon Nienna was intended for Nessa, who refused her because she couldn't be bothered by her constant weeping.

"While I can see all kinds of Morgoth, I actually think that his ability to understand the Elves enough to manipulate them is not necessarily a sign of empathy.  I think, given that he also tortures them, and probably tortured the first Elves into Orcs personally, it makes me think he’s a psychopath.  Maybe this is me being ignorant, but when I hear about a person having the ability to torture another human being (especially in a case like Morogth where he did it again and again and again and no one was forcing him) that person must have stunted empathy or be a psychopath."

I read empathy as the ability to understand others feelings, but not necessarily having sympathy for others. As for Morgoth (and Sauron), I think we should also not forget that they aren't human, they aren't elves, they are different being from another specie. Elves would be like ants for them at the beginning. We humans can be cruel to animals without being labelled as psychopath: they are not of our specie, we belittle them or do not sympathize with them because they function differently... well I don't see why Melkor would be different. When he creates the orcs he is a kid torturing insects. The problem is that Melkor never get past this point and evolved into someone who keeps torturing insects instead of stopping, not because he doesn't have the ability to understand how this hurts the elves, but because they are not kin to him, not on the same level... basically, rabbits in a laboratory. From his point of view he wouldn't be worse that us: we test drugs on animals, cut them appart, we have cannulated cows with a hole in their chest! We even created ugly dogs who have problems to breath because making them that way was fashionable at some point. The problem with Morgoth is that the elves and the humans are to him what animals are to us, and let's face it, we humans are douchbags when it comes to animals.

And this, I guess, is why Fëanor is right when he says being under the leadership of the Valar is wrong. Even if they mean well, they are not elves and will never be elves. The best case is that they will be nice "pet parents", but even if I love my cats, they are still cats and will never be my equals (I mean I love them, but did I ask them if they agreed to move to a new flat? Nope, they are cats, so they move with me). This is also the reason why Naswë (Miriel's brother) argued quite a lot against Finwë going to Valinor. There are genuine reasons for Finwë not listening to him, but he had very valid points, the first being THEY ARE NOT ELVES. Naswë can try to understand animals, and he does because Celegorm's ability to talk to animals is inherited from Miriel and Naswë has it too, but that won't keep him from eating them, so why would the Valar behave differently? Why would they ever consider the elves as anything else than perpetual children? The inbalance in power is so great that, to him, the current situation Fëanor is fighting against was 100% predictable from the start.

Of course Naswë blames Finwë, but not as much as we would think, because Miriel was a grown girl and Finwë can't be blamed for her choices. Naswë is more like "I told so you" (and this is also what he would say to Fëanor for the Celegorm/Oromë mess: "Just what did you expect?"). Naswë isn't a white knight, however, and the reason why he is unofficially exiled in Formenos (I headcanon that Fëanor goes there because Formenos are the lands of Miriel's kin, the House of the Lake) is that his response to Finwë marrying Indis was "marriage what marriage?", so he keeps calling her Princess Indis of the Vanyar and acts as if Fingolfin doesn't exist. He met him once and only once because he kept ignoring him, so Finwë decided to just give up on him and told him to come back to Tirion when he is ready to acknowledge that Fingolfin exists. Hundreds of years later Naswë is still not coming back to Tirion so that's telling about him.

 

"OMG.  OMG.  OMG.  Deep breaths.  No, I can’t help it :screams like a hysterical fan girl:  OMG!!!!!!!  You have no idea how delighted this makes me!!!!  You want to write fanfic of my fic?  ::::tackle hugs you::::"

Yes *_* I've wanted to write something for you for a long time and you seemed to really like the idea of Fingolfin and Fëanor alone in the North, so it's planned! I hope to be able to deliver before Xmas though, it's probably going to be multichaptered. It won't be as well written as your fic though, english is not my first language and sometimes it really shows (mostly on Fëanor, I am just not able to write his dialogue as they should, I feel like it's five-years-old Fëanor speaking lol).



Author's Response:

Nah I am talking about water falling down from the sky, so rain. And basically every weather phenomenon that happens to mix the tags "sky" and "water" lol.

:snorts:  I knew I was having a ‘duh’ moment, but the way I read it, it really sounded like rain was some kind of sentient entity lol

“My current headcanon is that when two Valar's realms mingle, due to their nature, it can, sometimes, mean that there is some kind of a "sexual" relationship between them (because their nature mingle at some point and it's basically ainu-sex if you do that).

This is really fascinating!  I am trying to imagine this and….it seems like it would be a spiritual merging?  Like they are connecting on a really deep level, far more intimate then sex, like the very essence of who they are are merging?  I wonder though, if it was like this, how deeply Ulmo understood Melkor?  Melkor seemed to fear Ulmo.  I wonder it was because he knew Ulmo knew him best….?  Or maybe it wasn’t’ fear, maybe he never messed with the sea because some small part of him remembered what they’d once had/what he wished they’d once had?  Or maybe some small part of him was ashamed of what he’d become and didn’t want Ulmo to see so he waged his war firmly on land?

….nah.  I don’t really believe he knew shame.  Just throwing out idea lol

“I also wondered if Nienna could have been intended as Melkor's mate. I don't remember which version came first but in one of the HoME, Nienna is listed as Melkor's sister rather than Mandos', and she was, at first, conceived as the Valië of winter and ice. Some of her attributions were later switched to Melkor and Nienna became a lot kinder, so I ruled that off but that's still possible. In my headcanon Nienna was intended for Nessa, who refused her because she couldn't be bothered by her constant weeping.

I had a sudden vision of Nienna as a character like that girl in Frozen (complete with singing and pretty ice storms).

“I read empathy as the ability to understand others feelings, but not necessarily having sympathy for others.

Ah, I understand now.  For me, I see empathy as the ability to actually feel another’s pain =.  Like if I were to listen to the story of someone’s abuse as a child, if I had sympathy for them, I would feel like that was a sad story, but I don’t feel the same depth of feeling like I do when I am being empathetic.  Someone who is empathetic, to me, is someone who really can think about what it would be like to be walking in the other’s shoes, to really feel another persons’ pain on a deep level.  Of course, this is all just my own view of these two words.

But, wow, reading that about how the Valar view Elves more like animals then equal beings…..I can totally see this.  It makes perfect sense.  It’s also downright horrifying, and makes me uncomfortable to think about to be honest.  Just…I think the captured Elves in Ultumno and the way Melkor picked them apart like insects, and just….I am really disturbed.  But I also really want to write a story on this too.  (There is that quote about how we should write what disturbs us that I think about a lot.  I actually do this a lot.)

I like that thought Naswë is going to be proved right about the Valar and how the Elves never should have trusted them, he also going to be a 3D character with flaws of his own.  To be honest though, him not acknowledging a child’s existence because of its parent’s choices is going to make me judge him hard.  (Doesn’t mean I won’t enjoy him as a character though, I have plenty of character who do shitty things, but I am still going to be giving him the stink-eye, especially if his behavior was ever apparent to Fingolfin.  :runs away with baby Fingolfin to raise in a cave where no one can ever hurt him again:  Now I am wondering how this will play out if he’s in Formenos when Feanor and Fingolfin come?  Ooooooo!  This could get really interesting!  I am curious about Fingolfin’s reaction to Naswë, but also Feanor’s.)

 It won't be as well written as your fic though, english is not my first language and sometimes it really shows”

Don’t say that, I am sure it will be brilliant!  And I think you will bring your own strengths to the story that I don’t have, and thus make it all the better :D  I am really looking forward to it.

“(mostly on Fëanor, I am just not able to write his dialogue as they should, I feel like it's five-years-old Fëanor speaking lol).

 

Don’t we all feel that way when writing Feanor lol  I know he makes me feel like an uneducated fool stringing nonsense together while he sits there with a what-the-hell look on his face :snorts:



Name: Kalendeer (Signed) · Date: August 18, 2016 2:05 · For: Intermission: Rage, rage against the dying of the light, Part I

"You are right that Feanor is never going to get over this.  Nor should he, I think.  This is his kid we are talking about who was taken advantage of.  Celegorm may not have understood what was so wrong with what happened at the time, but I think it was something that he never forgot, and after he’d grow into adulthood he came to understand how wrong it had really been.  I think he was the kind of person who would physically attack anyone who touched a child sexually."

I think part of the reason why I wonder at Celegorm/Oromë is because I don't really know how old Celegorm was (I guess it was said somewhere in the chapter but I don't remember). I'm really touchy about children so in my head, Celegorm was closer to 17 than to 13. This is still wrong, but more akin to pederastry than to pedophilia.

The reason why I don't put Oromë here at the same level of a human pedophile is that... well, he is not human, and may not be able to understand what the problem was unless an elf explained veeeeeeeeeery clearly. I don't think anyone ever tried that, nor that the Valar themselves encouraged the elves to teach them how to help. The only way I can see Celegorm being friend with Oromë is if they talk about this, and Oromë really listens. And changes. And stop behaving in a way that is harmful and tries to do some good, in a way that would benefit the elves. But that would requires ages for genuine trust to emerge from that, and they don't have enough time.

"If Orome does decide to try and join the rebellion then he’s going to find a frosty welcome waiting for him in the Feanorion camp, I think.  That doesn’t mean he won’t, but it’s not going to be a walk in the park for him.  Hum…now I am wondering if maybe, if Orome leaves the hive, I wonder if his latent empathy might start growing again?  Like, what if the Valar’s empathy depletes the longer they spend around each other?  No.  Wait.  That’s wouldn’t work.  The two Valar who spend the most time alone are Morgoth and Ulmo (and I don’ find Ulmo very empathetic, though he’s better then Manwe)."

I think that would actually work. Ulmo isn't very empathetic but still better, and... honestly... rain. RAIN. I don't think Ulmo is so alone, rain looks like he and Manwë having sex lol. Or Ulmo has empathy but only for fishes.

As for Morgoth, of all the Valar including Nienna, he is, I believe, the only one who DOES have empathy. He managed to manipulate most of the Noldor into hating their neighbours, so he is able to understand the children really well. Morgoth just doesn't use that to help anyone but himself. I read one theory on Tumblr, once, that the reason why the Valar failed is that Melkor was supposed to be the one with understanding, and the ability to deal with the Children, but since he defected, his abilites are only used to harm others. Morgoth is the only one who is constantly able to just fuck everyone big time, not only by crushing them but also by playing with their minds.

[Speaking of Morgoth, fire and ice (from another review!), I do associate Morgoth with fire and volcanos like you do, but also with ice. I think he can do both and is the Vala of extremes rather than just the Vala of fire. He can set something on fire then freeze it then burn it to the ground. He is extreme pain and extreme pleasure. There is no middle ground with him.]

Perhaps Oromë isn't a lost cause!

Your explanation about blood magic made sense and it fits quite well with what I am aiming for in the Xmas fic! I may diverge a bit from your canon for some points (Celegorm may be older since I REALLY don't write pedophilia) for scenaristic purposes and make like 1000 mistakes, but I'd still like the story to be a fanfic of your fanfic, so your verse rather than mine :) The biggest change will be the presence of Miriel's brother Naswë, who happens to be an "avari" of Valinor (that is, an elf who went to Valinor for some reasons but didn't want to, and ended up living in some remote places in order not to assimilate the cultural change, not to see any Ainu, and most probably not to see Finwë's face EVER) and is a practitioner of the old religion of Cuivienen. As such, I think he does have a lot of contacts with Oromë, and I want him to be a neutral character in the story.



Author's Response:

I think part of the reason why I wonder at Celegorm/Oromë is because I don't really know how old Celegorm was (I guess it was said somewhere in the chapter but I don't remember). I'm really touchy about children so in my head, Celegorm was closer to 17 than to 13. This is still wrong, but more akin to pederastry than to pedophilia.

I understand where you’re coming from totally.  I had imagined him as 15, maybe 16, (I think a lot of boys start to explore their sexuality around then.  Of course most aren’t going too far, and nor would Celegorm if the person he was exploring his sexuality with wasn’t a grown adult) but if that is too young for you than 17 works too.

“The reason why I don't put Oromë here at the same level of a human pedophile is that... well, he is not human, and may not be able to understand what the problem was unless an elf explained veeeeeeeeeery clearly. I don't think anyone ever tried that, nor that the Valar themselves encouraged the elves to teach them how to help. The only way I can see Celegorm being friend with Oromë is if they talk about this, and Oromë really listens. And changes. And stop behaving in a way that is harmful and tries to do some good, in a way that would benefit the elves. But that would requires ages for genuine trust to emerge from that, and they don't have enough time.

I do think that this is a possibility for what happened.  It would make sense too.  (I guess I am as yet undecided about a lot of things for Orome)  And I am not against the idea of Orome coming to understand how what he did was really wrong, I actually like this.

“I think that would actually work. Ulmo isn't very empathetic but still better, and... honestly... rain. RAIN. I don't think Ulmo is so alone, rain looks like he and Manwë having sex lol. Or Ulmo has empathy but only for fishes.

Sorry, I am confussed on this.  When you said rain, I seriously thought first about the singer Rain.  Too much k-pop lol.  But I am having a mind blank.  Who’s rain?  Sorry, I am probably being really stupid here :face plant:

“As for Morgoth, of all the Valar including Nienna, he is, I believe, the only one who DOES have empathy. He managed to manipulate most of the Noldor into hating their neighbours, so he is able to understand the children really well. Morgoth just doesn't use that to help anyone but himself. I read one theory on Tumblr, once, that the reason why the Valar failed is that Melkor was supposed to be the one with understanding, and the ability to deal with the Children, but since he defected, his abilites are only used to harm others. Morgoth is the only one who is constantly able to just fuck everyone big time, not only by crushing them but also by playing with their minds.

That’s a really interesting theory!  I like hearing alternatives to just Morgoth being born evil.  I read a really good one where Morgoth had essentially sung his fate into the Song, without even understanding what he was doing, and he was essentially trapped after that into living out the role he’d sung, unable to take a different path even though he wanted to :(  It was really sad.  Especially since in the story he had such a great bromance chemistry with Feanor :(

While I can see all kinds of Morgoth, I actually think that his ability to understand the Elves enough to manipulate them is not necessarily a sign of empathy.  I think, given that he also tortures them, and probably tortured the first Elves into Orcs personally, it makes me think he’s a psychopath.  Maybe this is me being ignorant, but when I hear about a person having the ability to torture another human being (especially in a case like Morogth where he did it again and again and again and no one was forcing him) that person must have stunted empathy or be a psychopath.

“I think he can do both and is the Vala of extremes rather than just the Vala of fire. He can set something on fire then freeze it then burn it to the ground. He is extreme pain and extreme pleasure. There is no middle ground with him.

I like this thought (and I am so bad, but I totally thought about kinks when you said extreme pain and pleasure ;P).

“Your explanation about blood magic made sense and it fits quite well with what I am aiming for in the Xmas fic!

Oh, I didn’t realize it was going to be a Xmas fic!  Awwwwww!

“(Celegorm may be older since I REALLY don't write pedophilia)

Yes, please, whatever makes you comfortable.

“but I'd still like the story to be a fanfic of your fanfic

OMG.  OMG.  OMG.  Deep breaths.  No, I can’t help it :screams like a hysterical fan girl:  OMG!!!!!!!  You have no idea how delighted this makes me!!!!  You want to write fanfic of my fic?  ::::tackle hugs you::::

“The biggest change will be the presence of Miriel's brother Naswë, who happens to be an "avari" of Valinor (that is, an elf who went to Valinor for some reasons but didn't want to, and ended up living in some remote places in order not to assimilate the cultural change, not to see any Ainu, and most probably not to see Finwë's face EVER) and is a practitioner of the old religion of Cuivienen.

Oooooh!  This sounds good!  I can’t wait to see how you write Avari culture, and what the other Elves of Valinor’s response to him not assimilate is!  Sounds like he 100% blames Finwe for Miriel, huh?  Or did he already not like Finwe from before?  No, wait, wait, don’t tell me, I want to find out in the story :D

 

Gosh this is all so exciting!!!!



Name: Kalendeer (Signed) · Date: August 16, 2016 21:00 · For: Intermission: Rage, rage against the dying of the light, Part I

Hi!

I knew there was something about Oromë/Poldorëa in this fic so I went back to it, because of this:

“Has anyone ever written an AU where Finwë remains in Tirion and Fingolfin exiles himself with Fëanor?”

I don’t know, but I want this!  Please!!!!

Well consider this DONE! I have the detailed plot written already and will start working on this once I have finished Sultry in September. Fic will include Fingolfin washing the dishes, avarin cults, Fëanor and compulsive embroidery, a grumpy uncle, necromancy, snow, snuggling, dead babies, the worst wedding ring ever, parties in the wood and everyone angsting.

But I needed to check on the Poldorëa mess first and Oromë.

I like what this chapter gives us because we see how the Valar basically hate each others. In R&U, we mostly see them through Fëanor's eyes and all of them are taken as a whole. They are all evil, threatening, and none of them is expected to be on the elves' side. I didn't feel like the Valar truly cared here, but I liked the fractures in their group and I wonder if Fëanor could have broken this group had he used a less, let's say, frontal approach. I really hope some of the Valar/Maiar will switch side at some point and the final fight will include some Ainur helping Fëanor. I hope Oromë WILL find out about Poldorëa and kick Tulkas's ass out of Arda (since his sister is so fast I guess he kicks would be fairly epic as well). I want Nessa and Oromë to switch sides!

Of course, Oromë and Celegorm would need to talk about what happen between them. I don't think Fëanor will ever get over this, but I wonder about Celegorm, and if they may be able to build some kind of friendship. I wonder if Oromë is even truly conscious of what he did wrong, since the Valar always seem to lack basic understanding of the children, was he even aware that Celegorm was too young? Or that his consent was dubious? Or did he just assume that because Celegorm agreed it was okay?

Did you describe Poldorëa somewhere? From his description's here I think he has black hair and eyes (I used to imagine him with light hair, like Celegorm's, did I understand wrong?). Do you have headcanons about how the blood magic works? I need to reread Eöl's chapters too, I think. Is the magic Eöl is using, and the stag hunt something Oromë made up?

 



Author's Response:

Well consider this DONE! I have the detailed plot written already and will start working on this once I have finished Sultry in September. Fic will include Fingolfin washing the dishes, avarin cults, Fëanor and compulsive embroidery, a grumpy uncle, necromancy, snow, snuggling, dead babies, the worst wedding ring ever, parties in the wood and everyone angsting.

OMG!  I love you!  And, and, and:  Fingolfin washing the dishes, avarin cults, Fëanor and compulsive embroidery, a grumpy uncle, necromancy, snow, snuggling, dead babies, the worst wedding ring ever, parties in the wood and everyone angsting.

YES!  This sounds AWESOME!  I think I might need to set up a shine in worship to this fic lol

“I really hope some of the Valar/Maiar will switch side at some point and the final fight will include some Ainur helping Fëanor. I hope Oromë WILL find out about Poldorëa and kick Tulkas's ass out of Arda (since his sister is so fast I guess he kicks would be fairly epic as well). I want Nessa and Oromë to switch sides!

Oh, this will be a thing, don’t worry!  In fact, among the Maiar it is already a thing in the story :)  As for Orome….he might very well change sides.  I see him as the biggest possibility among the male Valar, but we will see what happens.  It might be that all the Valar have lost too much of themselves over the eons to feel enough to break away from the hive.  By the time the 4th Age rolls around, is there enough left of Orome to take revenge for a murdered love?  Like, I think he’ll still be obsessed with Poldorëa to an extent (as much as a Vala can be at that point in their existence (I think their ability to feel human emotions eroded with time because they never focused on nurturing that potential, and so now they are but a shadow of themselves, and all empathy lost to most of them.  Some few of them still have the ability to feel something beyond their own concerns in the Years of the Trees (but like take Yavanna, she wept over the death of the Trees, but seemed to care nothing for Finwe’s murder.  Her sole concern seemed to be her Trees.  Or even Orome.  It seemed like he formed a relationship with Celegorm, but was it all his own selfish desires?  He saw Poldorëa in Celegorm, did he ever see Celegorm as his own person?  Was it all just a continuation of Orome’s obsession with Poldorëa?)).

“Of course, Oromë and Celegorm would need to talk about what happen between them. I don't think Fëanor will ever get over this, but I wonder about Celegorm, and if they may be able to build some kind of friendship. I wonder if Oromë is even truly conscious of what he did wrong, since the Valar always seem to lack basic understanding of the children, was he even aware that Celegorm was too young? Or that his consent was dubious? Or did he just assume that because Celegorm agreed it was okay?

Orome seemed to cared about Celegorm in the story, at least he said so.  While his inability to see how forming a sexual relationship with an underage boy was not OK might be because he is a Valar and the Valar not only do not understand so many basic things about Elves and Elven nature, they have also never been children themselves, it could also be Orome’s inability to see Celegorm as a person in his own right and not a reflection of Poldorëa.

You are right that Feanor is never going to get over this.  Nor should he, I think.  This is his kid we are talking about who was taken advantage of.  Celegorm may not have understood what was so wrong with what happened at the time, but I think it was something that he never forgot, and after he’d grow into adulthood he came to understand how wrong it had really been.  I think he was the kind of person who would physically attack anyone who touched a child sexually.  He did punch Curufin, and if Curufin hadn’t understood himself that what he’d done to Gildor was wrong, Celegorm wouldn’t have let it go as easily as he did, brother or no.

If Orome does decide to try and join the rebellion then he’s going to find a frosty welcome waiting for him in the Feanorion camp, I think.  That doesn’t mean he won’t, but it’s not going to be a walk in the park for him.  Hum…now I am wondering if maybe, if Orome leaves the hive, I wonder if his latent empathy might start growing again?  Like, what if the Valar’s empathy depletes the longer they spend around each other?  No.  Wait.  That’s wouldn’t work.  The two Valar who spend the most time alone are Morgoth and Ulmo (and I don’ find Ulmo very empathetic, though he’s better then Manwe).

“Did you describe Poldorëa somewhere? From his description's here I think he has black hair and eyes (I used to imagine him with light hair, like Celegorm's, did I understand wrong?).

I can’t remember if I did, and of course you can imagine him anyway you choose :)  If I had to describe him though, I’d say he looked Noldorin.  While Celegorm’s coloring is not the same, his features are very Noldorin (high cheekbones, high nose bridge, fair skin, wide eyes (in comparison to most Teleri)), essentially they look white, whereas Vanyar have features more common amongst African Americans except they are golden (skin/hair), Avari sometimes have dark skin, but the Avari really are a mix of Noldor and Teleri because some of both these kindreds stayed behind (I don’t think any Vanyar did?).  Teleri are quite diverse.  Shore-Teleri have more East Asian features with a lot of silver hair, Sindar are a mix of skin tones and features with generally darker-haired with their ruling family (Thingol & corp) favoring silver hair, Silvan are more of a mix as well (compared to shore-Teleri who don’t have as much diversity within the group) but are generally Native American looking (though there is a mix depending on the tribe, Silvan did, after all, break away from the Teleri main branch.

“Do you have headcanons about how the blood magic works? I need to reread Eöl's chapters too, I think. Is the magic Eöl is using, and the stag hunt something Oromë made up?

I have lots of thoughts about blood magic/the Land.  I can’t remember how much was explained in this chapter, but pretty much, when the 2 Valar’s bodies were slain, their spirits continued on because a Valar cannot fully be killed just because they lose their body (i.e. Sauron after the fall of Numinor.  The 2 Valar could have fashioned new bodies for themselves if they really wanted to go that route, but as we see with Sauron, they are never the same again, and their power is greatly diminished).  The 2 Valar also cannot free themselves from the bounds of the world/return to the Timeless Halls because none of the Valar can.  They gave that up when they choose to come to Arda.  So the 2 Valar are still around, they are still a Power in the world.  Orome, in his desperation/obsession to have Poldorëa back, decided to get the Elves to feed Poldorëa their energy in the hope of Poldorëa returning (again, kinda like Sauron who had to build up his power).  Thus the worship of the Land is born with the Elves making sacrifices to it. Poldorëa however never chooses to make himself a new body.  Instead he and the other Vala have a kind of exchange program going with the Elves.  The Elves give them a sacrifice (which the 2 Vala do like because it does give the strength, and I think they like to remain aware of the world and have some small influence on it) and in exchange the Valar release a little of their Power into the Elf.  The 2 Valar are Valar in the end though, and not Elves, so things can go wrong in this exchange of power and sometimes the Elves are killed for overload, which is why the Elves caution each other about taking too much.

Now we come to the Elves’ belief that when they die their sprits join with the Land.  Of course we see now what is behind the mysterious entity of the Land.  It is no collective of Elven souls giving the living power as the Silvan/Avari believe.  In fact, there is no collective consciousness for the dead Elves to find peace/purpose within in death.  They become unhoused spirits that wander Arda.  Some are more aware then others (it depends on the strength of their will and how much they actually want to be aware of the living world), some are little more now than a whisper in the tree tops.  But for those who are aware, and desiring life once again, we shall see what happens in future chapter! (sorry I am evil to tease like that!)

 

Sorry if this explanation made no sense what-so-ever!  Until I write it in the story, my ideas are not only pretty organic, they are also full of holes lol



Name: Spiced Wine (Signed) · Date: March 31, 2016 20:10 · For: Intermission: The one your soul marries
“You look very like your father with your hair down.”

Fingon frowned. His father never wore his hair down, but always arranged in neat braids. Fingon assumed this comment was a negative one. F


Name: Spiced Wine (Signed) · Date: March 24, 2016 11:27 · For: Intermission: The Visionary Part II
But Fingon earned his people’s respect and loyalty. He damn well did. She could have too, as I imagine she was one of their leaders over the Ice (though not like Fingon was a leader, he would have been the warmth of a fire to their frozen fingers, his encouraging smile the only thing that got them through the days sometimes, she would have been a distant pillar of strength they could drawn from but not really reach out and touch in the way they could embrace Fingon),

I agree. Fingon was so good to the people, despite his heartbreak over Maedhros' apparent betrayal.

I live in a state of being heartbroken over so many things in this and your other stories. So much pain over and over. It's even painful reading the parts in Valinor with F


Name: Spiced Wine (Signed) · Date: March 23, 2016 21:12 · For: Intermission: The Visionary Part I
Galadriel is so awful in this I honestly can't find a good word to say about her. Mind you, I thought she was a crashing bore when I read Lord of the Rings, and didn't see how any-one could be entranced by her so I am glad she can evoke *some* emotion in me, even if that is actuate dislike. Yes, I understand why she did this, but her contempt of Fingon was so profound and her opinion of herself far too high. I am sorry as can be that Gil-galad was her son, although he was a great king, but I am going to think that came through Fingon, not her at all. (I also insist on believing that in The Hobbit film where she confronts and drives of Sauron using the star glass, that it's F


Name: Spiced Wine (Signed) · Date: November 27, 2015 23:46 · For: Intermission: Rage, rage against the dying of the light, Part II
This is such a magnificent chapter. I hope you know that. The themes it deals with are epic and you write them like a master. It's so soul-destroyingly sad and brilliant. Fingolfin walking into what he thought would be a long decline of emptiness into madness, yet still going, holding the scenes he saw of Dagor Dagorath in his mind. That is stupendously brave - and then his seeing the souls, and yet being so very weary, because he is still the same soul.

And then seeing F


Name: ziggy (Signed) · Date: November 22, 2015 14:09 · For: Intermission: Rage, rage against the dying of the light, Part I

Love this extraordinary vision of the story of Manwe and Melkor- so powerful! They all feel huge and colossal and epic. Great writing.



Author's Response:

I loved getting the chance to really take a deeper look into the Valar, because I really don’t think they began how they ended. Usually, we just think of Melkor and his servants as those who fell, but I think all the Valar did in their own way.  They have lost themselves, and as much as I hate what they have done to the Elves, I pity them too. 

I am so glad you enjoyed this :D        



Name: ziggy (Signed) · Date: November 21, 2015 13:19 · For: Intermission: The one your soul marries

Just reminding myself of the breathless eroticism of this. Absolutely gloriously written.



Author's Response:

Aww!  Thank you so much!  Gosh, it’s always such a pleasure to hear you liked Maedhros/Fingon, especially since you do such a suburb job of writing these two :)



Name: mangacrack (Signed) · Date: November 16, 2015 17:54 · For: Chapter 71

You know I've been thinking about Thoriel in the last hours. Her story and her end wouldn't quite let go but I had trouble figuring out why. Until I realized why I was so upset about her end: it was the lack of freedom in her life. Not her death made me unhappy, the circumstances that led to it. Unlike (or very much like Turin, depending how you see it) she didn't feel so guilty she refused to live on, she ended her life because it was the only desicion left for her. Everything else, so she thought, was affected by the curse. Yet in her case I think it was mostly her percerption that made Hurin's come true in the end. Compared to Turin the tragedies were mostly harmless. Without the curse she could've picked up her life again.

Which got me thinking that Thoriel's curse wasn't her own at all. Her life was nothing more than a way to punish Turin further. Perhaps Morgoth knows something is up with Turin being the one who should kill him or perhaps he has only done it because he could but ... it's very easy to imagine Turin's reaction should he ever learn of his daugther's life (and her death).

So ... to take it even further ... does Thoriel exists only because the Curse? Was her conception the unlucky meeting of Turin's Curse and the Doom of the Noldor Finduilas was under? It makes kind of sense that she escapes all of that in the end, turning her into a normal woman again. She never truly had a relationship to her elvish side. It also rarely showed. Given how she reacted to Elurin and Elured ... Thoriel was kind of sceptical and never had the feeling there was a kind of kinship between her and the two other elves in her later life.

Well, now. Doesn't help my feelings in the end because bringing Thoriel back to fight Morgoth would be more like a punshiment for her. Since she doesn't want to be pulled back into that life again, else she would've chosen otherwise.

Turin on the other hand ... I've a little trouble understanding though I really like how you portrayed his gruff love for his daugther. That he wasn't just a harbringer of doom but a savior as well, taking out Glaurung. Seeing him and the Curse like now made also realize that for the Maglor I'm writing right now Turin's situation would probably his biggest nightmare: Everything you do, everything you touch turns to ashes and there's nothing you can do about it.

God, I hope Turin gets a second life. The first was poisoned.



Author's Response:

I am so stoked to hear Thóriel left such an impression on you!  You make so many good points here, I do think that her lack of choice, in her eyes, is one of the most tragic things about her and Turin’s stories.  It doesn’t matter how hard they fight, how strong the fire of defiance, how far they run, they can never outrun the Doom because it is in their blood, carried with them always. 

I thought the idea that the Doom of the Noldor might like cancel out the Curse on Turin’s blood-line really interesting!  I am not sure how it would work, but those are too very powerful and very real Powers in this world coming into contact with each other in the body of one person.

And I agree with you that she has very little connection with her Elvish blood.  I’d say she only has a connection to the people she’d love who were Elvish, but not their blood in her.  It would be interesting to know if if she’d grown up around Elves if she could have found a connection to that blood (Like Eärendil did when he looked into the Silmaril, pulling on the Elvish in his blood), could her connection have been nurtured and grown enough for her to have chosen Mandos in death?

Now, the question remains, was the Curse in Thóriel’s blood?  Well Morgoth didn’t actually seem to have been aware of her existence, but did Morgoth have to know of her for the Curse to catch her in its net too?  You make the good point that the Curse didn’t actually seem to have affected her choices much but it does seem like either she was driving herself to this unnatural state of burring up from the inside because of her terror of the Curse or the Curse was there in her blood, inescapable.  You know, I think the difference all came down to Morgoth’s awareness of her.  The fact he didn’t know of her existence meant he wasn’t actively willing the Curse, throwing power behind it, maliciously twisting all her choices/deeds to evil like he did to Turin and Húrin.  But I think the Curse was there, in her blood, she was quite latterly born with it, but it was dormant until Morgoth’s perceived her and his will came down upon her like a hammer stroke.  (Of course this is just my own interpretation, maybe she really didn’t have the Curse and could have gone on living free of it).

“Doesn't help my feelings in the end because bringing Thoriel back to fight Morgoth would be more like a punshiment for her. Since she doesn't want to be pulled back into that life again, else she would've chosen otherwise.”

Yes, I think you are completely right with this.  It would be a punishment for her to come back (so scratch that idea!).  For Turin it is different because Beleg is there waiting for him.

“Seeing him and the Curse like now made also realize that for the Maglor I'm writing right now Turin's situation would probably his biggest nightmare: Everything you do, everything you touch turns to ashes and there's nothing you can do about it.”

This is such a terrible thing to live with!  It makes me think of the Fëanorions Oath and the Noldor’s Doom/Curse, no matter what they do they cannot escape it, and everything they do with good intentions will end in ruin.  It is really tragic!

Thank you so much for this review!  And of course you just have to tease me again over your story lol  I am dying over here, dying!



Name: mangacrack (Signed) · Date: November 16, 2015 13:59 · For: Chapter 71

To reassure you I've noticed no difference in quality. The writing is perfect like always. I devoured Thoriels story in a matter of a single hour, she keeps being interesting. I really wonder if she stays human ... or if she has another choice? Or what will happen with and the Curse. Right now I agree with Avranc that she is more afraid of the curse than anything else. Almost feels like a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Okay ... forget what I said, I see I missed a chapter. So she isn't going to be reborn? *sniffs*

She chose to be human in the end, how sad. It means we aren't going to see her again *mourns Thoriel* And yet she is like her father and died on his sword as well, in the same manner. I hope she returns in some kind of way.

 



Author's Response:

Thank you for taking the time to read and leave this lovely review :)  I am so glad to hear you liked her story this much!  Wow!  I like what you said about it being almost a self-fulfilling prophecy.  She was so scared, and ran from, the curse all her life, and it pushed her into living desperately with this terror and fury always at the back of her mind.  I wonder if it was the same for Turin after he learned of the curse?

You know, I seriously considered having her go to the Halls of Mandos when she died and getting re-born with all the rest, but I just couldn't see her achieving much happiness in a life among Elves, as an Elf, separated from the people she'd loved best in the world.  She did love her mother and Gwindor, and it is going to be hard for them to learn her fate, but they died when she was so young, that she identified more with the Humans in her life.

Maybe she'll come back and help her father in that final battle though :D

Thanks again for the review :hugs:



Name: Spiced Wine (Signed) · Date: November 15, 2015 12:04 · For: Chapter 71
Th


Name: Spiced Wine (Signed) · Date: November 15, 2015 12:00 · For: Chapter 69
“Hello, my name’s Elur


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