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I Will Share Your Road by lotrfan General Audiences
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~ Fragments of Fate And Fire ~ by Spiced Wine Mature
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In Barad Eithel, High King Fingolfin lives under the shadow of his half-brother, dead on the very spot where the fortress...
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Rúmil has a surprise for his favourite student (and lover); the student exceeds expectations.
In the Eye of the Beholder by lotrfan General Audiences
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Spiced Wine
07/20/18 01:42 pm
Happy Friday, everyone
Spiced Wine
07/19/18 11:32 am
Oh, no! Only one more day, Narya!
Narya
07/19/18 09:34 am
I got up all excited this morning because I thought it was Friday...nope! Brain fail.
Narya
07/19/18 09:33 am
Belated happy birthday, Glorfindel :)
Glorfindel
07/18/18 09:27 pm
Thank you for the birthday wishes :) I had a lovely birthday!
Ysilme
07/16/18 11:46 pm
Same here, Siân. Sending lots of love and positive vibes! *hugs*
Narya
07/15/18 12:06 am
Glad your Mum is home, Spiced. I hope you've been able to unwind a bit today.
Spiced Wine
07/13/18 10:56 pm
My Mum’s been in hospital since Sunday, just came home, and I have been rushing in and out of hospital all week so I think I am going to relax, if poss!
Narya
07/13/18 06:32 pm
Fri-YAY! What's everyone up to this weekend?
Spiced Wine
07/13/18 11:04 am
And happy Friday all
Shout Archive



Name: kasura (Signed) · Date: July 16, 2018 7:54 · For: Chapter 7
Sooooooooo Celebrimbor's removal of Varda's 'hallowing' from the Silmaril, and Maglor's recovered from Galadriel's mind attack, does that mean Feanor finally get to speak to Maglor via the Silmaril? XD I do hope so!!!


Name: Spiced Wine (Signed) · Date: July 08, 2018 12:33 · For: Chapter 7
Like Kasura, I am very intrigued by this ancient Avari civilisation. The Sindar and Noldor seemed to think of them like the British Empire thought of people hadn’t been colonialized (barbaric and savage) but they were clearly much more than that.

Author's Response:

“The Sindar and Noldor seemed to think of them like the British Empire thought of people hadn’t been colonialized (barbaric and savage) but they were clearly much more than that.

Yes, exactly!  I think a lot of that is from their time in Valinor.  The Valar encouraged the idea that the Elves would never have achieved anything if not for the Valar’s teachings, that without them they would have never risen above the primitive civilization of the Elves left in Endor.  And those teaching got stuck in the Noldor’s head, and caused the root of many of the problems of racism we saw later on.  They had been taught they were better and superior to the Elves left behind, and when they returned to Endor the found their advancements were, indeed, further alone in many things, and that the Tree Light made their bodies stronger, so quite a few of the Noldor thought themselves indeed superior.

For the Avari civilization tho, I wanted to show that the Valar were a pack of liar.  That the Elves never needed them in the first place, that they were perfectly capable of developing as a people without the Valar or the Tree Light.  We see the Avari have developed powerful enchantments as well as other technologies.  While they never achieved something like the Silmarils or the Palantír, they were no slouches!  And they were free.



Name: kasura (Signed) · Date: July 08, 2018 2:59 · For: Chapter 7
This New Menegroth business sounds shady and reeks of the Valar's involvement. I won't be surprised if Melian was collared by the Valar to come back and control and brainwash Thingol, and through him the Sindar, Silvan and Avari who escaped Valar's scheme before.

And could Sons of Heaven be Pallando & Alatar, the Ishtari who were sent to 'help' ME but in reality were giving a mission by the Valar to control the Avari? and in cohort with Melian? Because it's the Valar...I am full of conspiracy theories...and I won't it past Manwe to cook up a scheme like this...

My guess is Elured and Elurin still not reembodied yet?

Author's Response:

“This New Menegroth business sounds shady and reeks of the Valar's involvement. I won't be surprised if Melian was collared by the Valar to come back and control and brainwash Thingol, and through him the Sindar, Silvan and Avari who escaped Valar's scheme before.”

Interesting that your mind went to Valar involvement….I can totally see them doing this….did they tho?  Oh we shall see… (I am trying not to spoil anything, but gods I am terrible at keeping secrets about my writing lol)

“And could Sons of Heaven be Pallando & Alatar, the Ishtari who were sent to 'help' ME but in reality were giving a mission by the Valar to control the Avari? and in cohort with Melian? Because it's the Valar...I am full of conspiracy theories...and I won't it past Manwe to cook up a scheme like this...”

This is an interesting idea, and I wouldn’t put it past Manwe either!  Perfect way to control all these Elves.  But as for the two blue wizards, I am afraid the Avari civilization fell when the world was changed with Numinor’s fall.  I like the thought that the Valar killed a ton of innocent people when they in their ‘righteous’ wrath they wrecked such changed upon the world with Numinor’s drowning and removing Valinor from the world.  (I don’t have Eru actually doing this.  It fits perfectly with who Manwe is in this story to have him spread the idea that it was Eru who changed the world, thus adding divine justice to back up the deaths of millions.  And in this story Eru has never actually intervened in anything as I am working under the premise that he literally cannot, that to put any power of his own into the world would be to destroy it.)

“My guess is Elured and Elurin still not reembodied yet?

I am glad you remembered them!  They are coming up soon :)  But no, as of yet, they have no been reembodied.

Thank you for the review!  I love all the theories you have against the Valar; they have no shame or limit to what they might do to maintain power!



Name: merwinem (Signed) · Date: July 07, 2018 22:59 · For: Chapter 7
Ah, so all the other Elves from Valinor except the Noldor were reborn. There was so much new information in the first six chapters that I simply missed this little fact, sorry! But in this case, the behaviour of the Noldor of Tirion toward Finarfin is even more inexcusable. If all the other Elves were reborn a long time ago, then the Valar’s claim that even after thousands of years some of the Noldor still aren’t ready for rebirth is completely ridiculous. And yet, some of the Noldor believe this rubbish and criticize Finarfin for pushing for “premature” rebirths. How can they not see right through the Valar’s lies? The Noldor are supposed to be the smart Elves, for god's sake!

So all the Elves from Middle-Earth joined the Land, and not just the Avari/Silvan Elves, like I’d previously assumed. Are Thranduil and Celeborn (and Lindir!) aware that their kin has been reborn at Cuivienen? I wonder whether Melian is collared like the rest of the Maiar or has some independence from the Valar like Osse and Uinen seem to have. It’s interesting that the Sindar expect Luthien’s descendants to be reborn. Is Dior even technically an Elf? And last we heard, Dior’s sons were alive, though that was two Ages ago. “…the divine blood in Dior and his children triumphed over the Mortal infused by Beren Erchamion…” - well, that’s not exactly a good thing, is it? I wonder what these people will think if they ever saw what Elwing has become.

New Menegroth seems like a golden cage. I feel it is a place where people are encouraged to spy on their neighbours and are ostracized if they don’t conform to expectations. It seems like there are strict rules about what a member of a specific class can and cannot do. Two million people stuck in an enclosed space… I suppose those two million include not only the Sindar, but also the Silvan who seem to reside outside Menegroth, but still within the Girdle itself. What a stifling existence it must be! I guess it isn’t as bad as Gondolin, though. Are Thingol and Melian technically King and Queen of the Silvan Elves, too? It’s encouraging that people who live there admit their dissatisfaction (they aren’t completely brainwashed), even if they aren’t prepared to talk about it out loud.

I’m curious about the Avari – from whom did they learn to weave such powerful enchantments and build cities? Who are the Sons of Heaven? I have to assume the Avari had guidance from a Maia. Unless this has something to do with Caranthir, perhaps? If the Avari built their advanced civilization without outside help, their achievements are even more impressive. After all, the Noldor were the most technologically advanced of the Elves, and even they learned from the Valar early on.

I was really happy to read your reply to my review of the Gondolin chapters. Thank you! I think we are more or less on same page as far as Maeglin’s character development is concerned. I want to be clear - I totally understand why he did what he did, I really do. Being stuck in Gondolin with no way out, surrounded by all those awful people – it must have been terrible. His story has some parallels with Sauron’s – they both experienced terrible injustices, and both handled the resulting situation in one of the worst ways possible. Of course, I don’t get worked up over Sauron’s crimes because Sauron is clearly an antagonist, so I expect awful things from him. I guess I cannot help but feel that since Maeglin is one of the protagonists of the story, he should be held up to a higher standard. Maybe I’m being a little too hard on him… I’m very encouraged by what you wrote about Maeglin truly seeing himself in the end and trying to return to being the person he was before Gondolin. I’m looking forward to seeing where you take his character after rebirth.

Thanks for the new chapter, I enjoyed it!

Author's Response:

“But in this case, the behaviour of the Noldor of Tirion toward Finarfin is even more inexcusable. If all the other Elves were reborn a long time ago, then the Valar’s claim that even after thousands of years some of the Noldor still aren’t ready for rebirth is completely ridiculous. And yet, some of the Noldor believe this rubbish and criticize Finarfin for pushing for “premature” rebirths. How can they not see right through the Valar’s lies? The Noldor are supposed to be the smart Elves, for god's sake!”

Yep, they should have seen through the Valar’s lies!  But then, these are the same Elves who stayed in Valinor to begin with.  There are some who originally followed Finarfin and turned back with him, but the majority were either complacent and didn’t care enough to leave, or they had bought into what the Valar’s were selling.

“Are Thranduil and Celeborn (and Lindir!) aware that their kin has been reborn at Cuivienen?”

Nope, they’ve no idea.  Thingol was reborn in the late 2nd age, so while there were some others, like Elmo, who died before him and were reborn, most came after him, and thus, after Melian’s Girdle went up.

“I wonder whether Melian is collared like the rest of the Maiar or has some independence from the Valar like Osse and Uinen seem to have.

Ah, I am glad you are thinking about that!  And yes, she was collared…is she now tho?  Is she still working under the Valar’s loyalty chains?  Was she freed when she was exposed to the Silmaril?  Or is something else going on?  I won’t say yet :)

“It’s interesting that the Sindar expect Luthien’s descendants to be reborn. Is Dior even technically an Elf? 

Oh, I love that you asked that question!!  The Sindar seem to think that of course he was an Elf, since it fits with their world view of Thingol and Melian being these god-like figures, but was Dior?  Both his parents were mortal, did he have a Choice?  Or was only his children and their children give the choice since he married an Elf?  Or was he given a choice and he chose mortality?

“And last we heard, Dior’s sons were alive, though that was two Ages ago. “…the divine blood in Dior and his children triumphed over the Mortal infused by Beren Erchamion…” - well, that’s not exactly a good thing, is it? I wonder what these people will think if they ever saw what Elwing has become.”

Yes, we have seen a few examples of the mixing of Maia and Children blood to be a bad thing.  Even diluted as it was in Elrond and Elros’ children, we still saw effects.  As for Doir’s sons, I am pleased you are thinking of them, they are coming soon :)

You are right about new Menegroth, it does seem stifling, and has things in common with Gondolin :shudders:  Either are a place I would ever want to live!

“Are Thingol and Melian technically King and Queen of the Silvan Elves, too? It’s encouraging that people who live there admit their dissatisfaction (they aren’t completely brainwashed), even if they aren’t prepared to talk about it out loud.

Well, they are certainly CLAIMING the kingship –just as Thingol did in Beleriand when he called himself its king, never mind that the Green Elves already had their own.  But the Silvan are not interested in having him rule over them anymore than they were in Beleriand.  He may call himself their king, but they did not consider him as such.  They have high-tailed it out of new Menegorth and live in the forests, and try to have as little to do with the Sindar as possible.  So there are people, like Breglos, who are far from brainwashed.  It’s just the Elves formally of Doriath really who are buying what Thingol is selling because he was their king so long, and Doriath was a prelude to this –little class mobility and Thingol ruling supreme over all.  I think Luthian’s deeds in her Silmaril hunt only added to the sense that Thingol and Melian and their descendants were set apart.  Luthian did what seemed the impossible, not only hoodwinking Morgoth but brining a Mortal man back to life.  And I think Dior and Elwing’s possession of the Silmaril added to their demi-god-like imagine (maybe another factor in why they didn’t want to give it up?).

“I’m curious about the Avari – from whom did they learn to weave such powerful enchantments and build cities? Who are the Sons of Heaven? I have to assume the Avari had guidance from a Maia. Unless this has something to do with Caranthir, perhaps? If the Avari built their advanced civilization without outside help, their achievements are even more impressive. After all, the Noldor were the most technologically advanced of the Elves, and even they learned from the Valar early on.”

I really wanted to show an Elven civilization without any Valar/Maiar influence.  The Avari’s civilization shows that the Elves never needed the Valar in the first place, they were perfectly capable of developing advanced civilizations on their own (just as man humans did outside Beleriand, as well as the Dwarves).  Given that Elves are immortal, and the war was not sucking up most of these Elves attention, they were able to achieve a lot.

The Sons of Heaven are a part of this civilization’s mythology/possibly their religion, the same way the mother star-goddess was.  The Sons of Heaven might have come from cultural memories of Orome visiting the Elves or some other Maia someone encountered, but maybe they were based off creatures seen in Utumno?  Maybe Morgoth experiment with more designs than just Balrogs for the Maiar who followed him, and some of the escaped thrall spoke of some of the horrors they had seen.  We don’t know, and that’s the way I wanted it.  There was this mighty Elven civilization with its own culture and believes but it existed and was destroyed without any of the Elves in the west even knowing about it, and it fell all because the Valar had to throw about their power and try to teach the world a lesson they would never forgot: that Valinor was theirs and no one got to come there unless they said so.

“His story has some parallels with Sauron’s – they both experienced terrible injustices, and both handled the resulting situation in one of the worst ways possible. 

This is an interesting parallel.  Yes, they both did have terrible things happen to them…it reminds me also of Lindir who suffered such abuse at the hands of Noldo and who struggled with hatred for so long.  I think, the difference between both Maeglin and Sauron was the way they handle their choices going forwards after they had a glimpse in the mirror.  Sauron was shown the true rot in himself in the light of the Silmaril, but he turned away, chose the easier path, and continued down the road of destruction, of himself and those around him.  But when Maeglin was shown what he had become –when he looked into Celegorm’s mind and realized that what he’d done was a violation—he was not only horrified, but he chose to change.  His road back to himself wasn’t achieved in a day, but he did choose to take the first step upon.

One thing I hope for Maeglin is that he is able to use a power he once used for ill and now use it for good.  There is a lot he could do with powerful mind-magic in Valinor, a lot of people with their minds violated by the Valar who he could help, and I think it would be healing for him to use this special power of his that he has rarely used for good and many times for ill, finally get to do that.

Thank you for the review!  You always bless me with such great ones :)



Name: Spiced Wine (Signed) · Date: July 07, 2018 22:28 · For: Chapter 7
So it comes to this: all Elves can be reborn without the Valar’s intervention, (even if being picked up and taken to New Menegroth and being reborn in Valinor is only a difference of degrees of control in my mind). In both places, the ‘rulers’ want to control the reborn.

Author's Response:

Yep, the Valar were liars from the start!  The Elves don’t need Mandos and never did.  In the case of the rebirth’s in Cuiviénen, the Avari civilization wove the enchantment that drew souls to Cuiviénen, both because it fit with their religion that the Elves be reborn in the place of their birth, but also out of concern for the dead souls.  They had a deep rooted fear of the Dark Hunter –Morgoth—and what he might do to their dead –some of the Elves captured by Morgoth escaped enthrallment, and they spread tales of horror and corrupted souls.  So the Avari wanted to keep the dead souls safe.  But when Thingol was reborn –after the Avari’s civilization was all but wiped out after Númenor’s fall and the changing of the world—he filled in the power vacuum and Melian wove her Girdle, and you see the result :(



Name: Himring (Signed) · Date: July 07, 2018 20:21 · For: Chapter 6

Poor Finarfin! He tried so hard.



Author's Response:

Thank you for the review!  Yes, Finarfin did try so hard, it wasn’t fair what happened to him at all.  At least, even though, in the end it seemed to him he failed, he didn’t fail in his greatest task: the Noldor are starting to be reborn.  And it was his continuous labor for thousands of years, putting pressure on the Valar while still maintaining that balance of deception that he was over-all their loyal man, that achieved this.  Of course, the Valar had to get their revenge and made the Gondolindrim the first to be reborn.  But even tho they have wiped the memories of others, those others are still going to be trickling out.  So there is still hope!

I hope you continue to enjoy the story :)



Name: Spiced Wine (Signed) · Date: July 07, 2018 17:46 · For: Chapter 7
The statue had been at his back, but the minute he caught its shape from the corner of his eye, and turned fully to stare. It dominated the clearing, carved all from white stone with Mithril shinning in its eyes like two stars. It took the shape of a woman towering over him. Her knees spread wide, belly protruding with pregnancy that seemed large enough to contain the world. Or birth a race. Between her spread legs, a baby pushed from her birthing chamber. Only it was not a baby but a male full-grown. His head, shoulders, and half his chest free, the rest of him caught mid-labor. On the mother’s thighs sat over a dozen little fully-grown, naked Elves, each staring up at her face with awe, or perhaps worship. The mother stared right down into Breglos’ eyes with her two star-bright ones. The crook of smile scrolled into her mouth lent her the impression of a benevolent mother. “The Star Mother. Or that is how the Avari who carved her named the goddess they worshiped as their creator.”

I love this gentle rebirth, and the ancientness of it, as powerful as the Valar’s, but less constrained. It os a shame that Breglos had to walk into Doriath :(

Author's Response:

“I love this gentle rebirth, and the ancientness of it, as powerful as the Valar’s, but less constrained. It os a shame that Breglos had to walk into Doriath :(

I am pleased you liked the rebirth!  And I think that it seemed right for the Elves to be reborn in the place their people were first born.  This from of rebirth is not forced at all.  Only when a spirit is ready do they themselves choose rebirth.



Name: Spiced Wine (Signed) · Date: July 07, 2018 11:12 · For: Chapter 7
I love Breglos, he is one of my favourite characters and I am so glad he has been reborn, but this situation is truly awful.

So this is the Fourth Age is it, the Third? And Thingol has returned to build a new Menegroth, which seems a ‘safe’ society intent on putting people into little boxes.

I have to assume in some way Melian is controlling Thingol?

And Breglos has no-one he loves, no real hope of ever seeing them; it feels as though he has walked straight into a trap.

Author's Response:

I love Breglos, he is one of my favourite characters and I am so glad he has been reborn, but this situation is truly awful.”

I am glad to hear to is one of your favorites!  And yes, it’s a bad situation, especially since at the moment he’s alone.

“So this is the Fourth Age is it, the Third? And Thingol has returned to build a new Menegroth, which seems a ‘safe’ society intent on putting people into little boxes.”

Third Age.  I don’t have an exact year in mind, but this happens after the stuff we’ve seen in Valinor, so Celebrían is dead but Sauron is still gathering power.

Yep, you’ve got this new Menegroth down.  Everyone is so safe and prosperous inside the Girdle, why would they ever want to leave? Ugh.  It’s a cast system with only a little upward mobility.  Most people are doomed to live out their lives exactly as their parents did.  There is every little free will.  I think that the old Menegroth had a society that made class movement difficult too –not as extreme—but the forerunner to this.  It is a way of controlling people, and with all the Sindar living in Doriath (which wasn’t that big), the ruling classes put up one restriction and then another and another, justifying them all as necessary to keep the peace. 

I have to assume in some way Melian is controlling Thingol?”

For this I will stop myself from giving spoilers :)

The one advantage Breglos has is that not all the other Returned are happy with the situation either, especially the non-Sindar who never called Doriath home or Thingol king.  Thingol can claim the kinship over all the lands inside the Girdle all he likes, that doesn’t mean the people acknowledge him back.  The Silvan live in the forests away from Menegroth, and the Avari in the mountains.  They are still trapped within the Girdle, but they aren’t sipping the cool-aid.



Name: Spiced Wine (Signed) · Date: July 06, 2018 14:43 · For: Chapter 4
It seems impossible to think of Fingolfin, or Fëanor or any of his sons or Fingon not recalling who they were.”
Ah, well, I might have something else planned for them :winks:

*Screams* What? what?

Author's Response:

Haha!  I am not telling  :evil grins:  But seriously, can you see the Valar ever willingly releasing them from Mandos?  Nope.  So they have to break their way/or get broken out.



Name: kasura (Signed) · Date: July 03, 2018 2:34 · For: Chapter 6
And I don't know how Feanor and Fingolfin will deal with Turgon once they found out what happened to Finarfin. That was really nasty of Turgon...and bringing oppression back to Noldor in Tirion. Turgon has no redeemable qualities to me right now...even Galadriel was able to uplift herself up a bit by rejecting Sauron's ring

Author's Response:

I am not 100% sure what Turgon’s punishment will be either.  Tho if it left up to Finarfin to judge, as it very well might be since he was the injured party, it will depend on Turgon’s own remorse.  He meant what he said to Anarie and Idril, if the one who committed a crime repents deeply and sincerely of that crime, he believes forgiveness should be granted.  To him, the whole point of punishment as far as the condemned is concerned, is to impress upon them the seriousness of their crime and try and incite change in them.  If they have already punished themselves in their hearts with regret and mean to strive for change, then he would forgive (tho the ex-criminal would still have to be monitored to see if they really were committed to change).

Not everyone else is half so forgiving tho, and Finarfin was not the only one hurt, which Finarfin will remember.  It is his friends who were betrayed and had their minds tampered with by the Valar.  Turgon would have to show one hell of a repentant side, and I am not sure Turgon is capable of that.  First, he would have to realize he was in the wrong, and then he would have to admit it.  Humbling his pride is almost as hard a task as facing the mirror.

Thank you so so much for reading and reviewing!!  Your support means the world to me, and helps me find the will to return again and again :hugs:



Name: kasura (Signed) · Date: July 03, 2018 2:25 · For: Chapter 6
I just want to leave quick comments for these new chapters instead of diving deep and dissecting different facets of what happened in Valinor, while the Exile elves struggle in ME – which will take me weeks to do :)

To be honest these chapters were really hard for me to read, just the grimness, hopelessness, and nasty Gondolin power play converging, which kudos to you for a great setup of a dreary Valinor. I kept on screaming for Maglor et all to come back and rescue Finarfin and his band of rebels from losing hope. How they need Maglor, Glorfindel, Gildor...to shake the oppression off and change the status quo.

The elves are stuck in a no win situation where they either fade in ME or coming back to 'gentle' imprisonment in Valinor.

I am sorry to see Celebrian died. I was hoping she could help to ease Finarfin's loneliness. I hope she's able to do something despite being a houseless fea.

I was really surprised by Ecthelion's awakening. It's great to see him grow and change as a person. At least one good thing came off the Gondolin mess.

With Valar crushing the rebelling Maiar I can see Curumo running to take the ring from Sauron when he's in ME to escape slavery. I am always curious about how Curomo morphed to wanting to own Sauron's ring. I can totally imagine this. Wondering if other Istari like Radagast, Pallando & Alatar will help the Noldor rebels to bring the Valar down.

My heart breaks for Finarfin...he needs Feanor and Fingolfin and Finrod to hug and love him.

BTW not even Orodreth was re-embodied for Finarfin? ouch, he should be a safe person from Valar's view because Orodreth neither rebelled against Valar's teachings nor a charismatic leader to challenge the status quo. He left Valinor because his parents took him, and he was king of Nargothrond because Finrod quit, and Nargothrond fell because of his bad decisions.

Author's Response:

“To be honest these chapters were really hard for me to read, just the grimness, hopelessness, and nasty Gondolin power play converging, which kudos to you for a great setup of a dreary Valinor. I kept on screaming for Maglor et all to come back and rescue Finarfin and his band of rebels from losing hope. How they need Maglor, Glorfindel, Gildor...to shake the oppression off and change the status quo.”

I am sorry I could not give you more hope during these chapters!  But I guess we all feel how little hope there really has been in Valinor all these years.  They had only the hope of One Day, but had no means of achieving it, no way to get the dead reborn.  Until they did.  But, of course, like everything, it would have been too easy for the rebirth of the dead to be a boon to them, the Valar wouldn’t have allowed that!  So their dearest desire for years –the dead reborn—turned into a vehicle of the resistance’s destruction.

“I was really surprised by Ecthelion's awakening. It's great to see him grow and change as a person. At least one good thing came off the Gondolin mess.”

He was really terrible in his first life, but I wanted at least some of the Gondolindrim to be changed by death, and he decided it would be him lol

“With Valar crushing the rebelling Maiar I can see Curumo running to take the ring from Sauron when he's in ME to escape slavery. I am always curious about how Curomo morphed to wanting to own Sauron's ring. I can totally imagine this. Wondering if other Istari like Radagast, Pallando & Alatar will help the Noldor rebels to bring the Valar down.”

I hadn’t thought about Curumo’s actions in Middle-earth yet, but I really like your thought that he reached out for the Ring as a means to escape the Valar.  I wonder if, when he first started looking for it, before he fell to Sauron in the Palantir, he had a purer motive then just power?  Maybe he searched for it hoping that it would be a powerful weapon against the Valar, kind of like how Denethor thought it would help Gondor defeat Sauron.

“My heart breaks for Finarfin...he needs Feanor and Fingolfin and Finrod to hug and love him.”

Mine too!  And yes, he needs his family asap!  At least some of them are coming soon tho, I promise!  Orodreth is one the Valar would consider rebirthing with a memory-wipe, yeah.  Not that he is a fan of the Valar, but that they would believe they could control him if he lost his memory of the years in rebellion.



Name: merwinem (Signed) · Date: July 02, 2018 23:15 · For: Chapter 6
Oh, finally, the last story. I’m so excited! There is so much good stuff in these early chapters.

Finarfin doesn’t have a lot of self-esteem. That’s really sad. Existing (not really living) for so long in such a bleak place must have been horrible. And he thinks Feanor will reject him, despite remembering Feanor’s words of support against Indis? Why doesn’t Finarfin trust his own memories of Feanor, why does he assume that the tales people tell about Feanor’s madness and pride are the truth when he had seen the real Feanor with his own eyes?

It’s curious that Earwen is still queen. Apparently her father is still in the Halls. It seems that Turgon and co were the first Elves to be reborn – none of the Sindar from Doriath, Teleri from Alqualonde or Sirion, Vanyar killed in the War of Wrath or anyone else at all were reborn. So why aren’t the survivors from those groups adding their voices to Finarfin’s in demanding the Dead’s return? Have they given up a long time ago? And why were the Noldor reborn before the Teleri? If anything, this adds to the tensions between the two groups, which actually might have been what the Valar intended, now that I think of it. This is the thing that makes Finarfin the right king for the occasion - he succeeded in his greatest task, despite his lack of self-esteem, his apparent weakness, his impostor syndrome. He is literally the only leader who got the Valar to relent about the rebirths. Those ungrateful bastards in Tirion who abandoned him in favour of Turgon better realize just how special Finarfin is and beg for his forgiveness.

I love how in just a few chapters you’ve given backstories to so many characters who previously were only mentioned (Anaire, Ecthelion, Ingwe, Indis). On that note, I hope to see more of Amrod and Amras, who remain the only Feanorions whom we haven’t gotten to know particularly well. They are always the overlooked ones, aren’t they? I like that you tried to make them different people with different personalities (Amras being more artistic, possibly having OCD, Amrod being more wild but quiet), and I really want to see more of that. I like it when twins are depicted as two distinct people rather than as two identical parts of one whole. You did a very good job with Elrohir and Elladan in the Forth Age side stories – those two are definitely not interchangeable by any stretch of the imagination.

That was an interesting tie-in with five of the rebel Maiar being sent to Middle-Earth. It’s not entirely clear how much autonomy they were allowed to retain – were they being mind-controlled (re-collared), or just threatened into good behaviour? I guess if they were being mind-controlled Saruman wouldn't have sided with Sauron, though. Anyway, I like this, there's a lot of potential here. I would love to see a version of Olorin who is not a grumpy old man.

By the way, I loved the idea of the Valar losing their physical bodies. At least some of those parasites are gone now. I’m also intrigued by some of the rebel Maiar being pushed into the Void. I mean, Melkor is there, will he use this to his advantage somehow? Hopefully the rebels will rescue those Maiar eventually. They don’t deserve to be stuck in the Void with Morgoth until the Dagor Dagorath.

I liked your spin on the vague canon statement that Indis and Ingwe were “kin”. For Elves, “kin” can mean literally anything – why couldn’t Tolkien just tell us, “kin” in what capacity exactly? Was Ingwe her father, brother, uncle, third cousin twice removed? Ugh... By the way – what’s up with Ingwe? It appears that he is simultaneously being controlled by the Valar and buying into their bullshit. He probably won’t abandon the Valar even if removed from their power. What a mess of a person.

I have some more thoughts on Idril and the Gondolindrim, but this is getting long, so I’ll leave them for another day. Once again, thank you for taking the time to write these amazing stories!

Author's Response:

“Finarfin doesn’t have a lot of self-esteem.”

You are right.  His childhood took its toll, but I think he was healing, and defiantly beginning to set boundaries, but all that was undone with the years he’s spent in loneliness, blaming himself for leaving his children and brothers.  Maybe if things hadn’t gone so terribly in Beleriand it would have been all right still, but he had to learn of his brothers and sons’ deaths far from them, with the questions of might they not have died if he had gone with the eating him up.

“Why doesn’t Finarfin trust his own memories of Feanor, why does he assume that the tales people tell about Feanor’s madness and pride are the truth when he had seen the real Feanor with his own eyes?”

I don’t think he fears the Feanor will despise him for not being ‘Noldo’ so much, as because he ‘didn’t have the strength for the road’ (those were Fingolfin’s last words to him, and they have haunted him).  I doubt Feanor had anything good to say either at their last parting, but Feanor wasn’t in his right mind either, so little surprise there.

“It seems that Turgon and co were the first Elves to be reborn – none of the Sindar from Doriath, Teleri from Alqualonde or Sirion, Vanyar killed in the War of Wrath or anyone else at all were reborn.

I am sorry this was unclear in the story.  I think it was only mentioned briefly in ch 1, but the Noldor were actually the only one’s who dead had not been reborn.  The Vanayar killed in the War of Wrath were being reborn, as well as the Teleri killed in the Kinslaying.  As for the Elves who never came to Valinor and joined the ‘Land,’ their souls went elsewhere, and we will learn about their fates soon.

Thank you for pointing Olwe’s absence out!  I hadn’t actually thought about him, it just felt natural that Earwen be queen during this time.  I have thought now, and think he is one of the few Teleri killed during the Kinslaying that hasn’t yet chosen rebirth.  I think that he carries a weight of self-blame in his heart.  He feels that, as king, he should have been able to prevent the Kinslaying.  He thinks that he should have done differently when Feanor came to him, that he should have seen Feanor’s desperation and understood that Feanor would not have taken no for an answer, he thinks ‘why didn’t I just agree to help them build ships of their own?’ or ‘why didn’t he realize Feanor would be back for the ships?’  Whether blaming himself is reasonable or not doesn’t matter, because guilt isn’t about logic.  Once he is reborn tho, I don’t think he will want to retake his position as king. 

“This is the thing that makes Finarfin the right king for the occasion - he succeeded in his greatest task, despite his lack of self-esteem, his apparent weakness, his impostor syndrome. He is literally the only leader who got the Valar to relent about the rebirths. Those ungrateful bastards in Tirion who abandoned him in favour of Turgon better realize just how special Finarfin is and beg for his forgiveness.”

This is true!  It was Finarfin who succeeded in gaining the dead –at least some of them—rebirths.  And, with the Noldor of Tirion in the weakened position they occupy, Finarfin’s way was really the only way to go.  The Noldor wouldn’t have survived attacking Mandos.

“I love how in just a few chapters you’ve given backstories to so many characters who previously were only mentioned (Anaire, Ecthelion, Ingwe, Indis).

I feel like with so many of our main characters absent, my mind finally took the time to dwell upon these others.  And I am glad it did, for it feels like the story became better for flushing them out.  Amras and Amrod, you are right, need more screen time.  For now, tho I have trying to make them their own people, and keep them at least in the thoughts of their brothers,’ I don’t have as strong of a sense of who they are compared to their brothers.  But I am hoping they will reveal themselves more fully in the future. 

“That was an interesting tie-in with five of the rebel Maiar being sent to Middle-Earth. It’s not entirely clear how much autonomy they were allowed to retain – were they being mind-controlled (re-collared), or just threatened into good behaviour? I guess if they were being mind-controlled Saruman wouldn't have sided with Sauron, though. Anyway, I like this, there's a lot of potential here. I would love to see a version of Olorin who is not a grumpy old man.”

I am glad to hear it worked!  The five Maiar were part of the resistance, so Eönwë had to have exposed them all at one time to the Silmaril.  I think, even with the Valar digging through their minds, the Maiar no more surrendered the secret of their freedom than the one who freed them.  They would have rather died than be re-enslaved.  So the Valar sent them to Middle-earth as punishment still believing that they were loyalty bound to them.  We shall see if anything happens to Olorin when he returns to Valinor after Suaruman’s betrayal.  It might be that he is able to convince the Valar that Sauron found a way around the Valar’s loyalty collars and convince them that he is still their loyal servant (all the while planning to work for the resistance again).

“I’m also intrigued by some of the rebel Maiar being pushed into the Void. I mean, Melkor is there, will he use this to his advantage somehow? Hopefully the rebels will rescue those Maiar eventually. They don’t deserve to be stuck in the Void with Morgoth until the Dagor Dagorath.”

I wish I could give you a happy ending for these Maiar!  However, the Valar killed them before banishing what was left of them to the Void.  An Ainur cannot fully die, some parts of them remain, like the Valar who faded, or Sauruman who was killed by Worm tongue, but these Maiar don’t have the power to manifest as anything but, hmm, a sixth sense about something?  A feeling of déjà?  They cannot really influence anything in the world around them.

“By the way – what’s up with Ingwe? It appears that he is simultaneously being controlled by the Valar and buying into their bullshit. He probably won’t abandon the Valar even if removed from their power. What a mess of a person. 

He did buy into their bullshit when the Elves first arrived to Valinor, so much so, that he submitted himself to their ‘help’ and allowed them to tamper with his mind.  Now, whether or not he would still be their lapdog if his mind could return to its natural state, that is the question.  His mind has also run the paths the Valar laid out for it so long, that I am unsure it is possible for him to return to himself (maybe if he died and was reborn?).  He might be one of the Elves that doesn’t have a good ending to his story.

Thank you, so very much, for the wonderful review!  Your reviews always leave me thinking deeper about the characters and plot, and that makes them treasures for that alone :)



Name: Spiced Wine (Signed) · Date: July 02, 2018 22:29 · For: Chapter 5
I absolutely adore this description of Glorfindel : Then: hair of summer-gold, eyes so blue they made the sky rage in jealousy, the prowl of a warrior, the swaying hips of a minx, looped arm-in-arm with –Maglor. Alive, breathing, kin, blood, brother-son, hope. Hope.

A deadly, gorgeous, minx. He is going to slay (i in a manner of speaking!) those who knew him as the old Glorfindel! I hope Turgon and Penlod etc shake in their wretched boots!

Author's Response:

I know!  I can just picture the reactions of those who knew him in his other life, hot damn, there is no way and no one who will be able to put him back in a box :)



Name: Spiced Wine (Signed) · Date: July 01, 2018 18:56 · For: Chapter 6
Who are the Noldor on Tol Eressëa? Are these mainly those who came in the Times of Flight, as Sauron grew in power, before and after the Last Alliance? So a lot would be from Lindon, would they? (Apart from those who were originally from Gondolin and Nargothrond) I don’t know about them, really, but I can just imagine how the return of Maglor and Glorfindel and Gildor, Elladan and Elrohir would seem in this strange, veiled prison-in-all-but-name. The ‘resistance’ tries, and should be lauded for that, but they have no idea, really, no idea, even Idril, enclosed safe in Gondolin for most of her life. And she just does not have it, that raging firestorm inside her that burns up through those locked in Mandos, that went through death and grief and war and despair and pain. It’s just never going to work this way, try though they may. Especially with Turgon, who’s proved he will kill and tattle to the Valar, and Eärwen and Anairë would have short shrift because of their ‘deviant’ affair.

It would be like people in a dark room being blinded by a searchlight or people caught in a lightning storm, when Maglor, Glorfindel et al return.
I can just imagine it, the shock of it, the terrible glory, sweeping all that grey miasma aside, and then, when the Fëanorions and Fingolfin and Fingon are reborn, it should make the sun look pale!



Author's Response:

Who are the Noldor on Tol Eressëa?

They are Elves who have sailed since the end of the War of Wrath, so refugees from Beleriand, but their majority is made up of Elves who sailed after Gil-galad’s death and in the years after.  They will support Idril before Turgon, for sure, but she will never be their true queen when most of them still consider Gil-galad their king :)  But they want the dead reborn and the Valar to stop interfering in their lives, so they have common cause with the Elves of Tirion, even if most of them have never set foot in Tirion in their lives.

“I can just imagine it, the shock of it, the terrible glory, sweeping all that grey miasma aside, and then, when the Fëanorions and Fingolfin and Fingon are reborn, it should make the sun look pale!”

I hope that I can do them justice when they return, for you are so right, they should come walk out of Mandos with the fire and passion of living stars!  They will mean business, and the time for walking softly will be passed and war upon them!



Name: Spiced Wine (Signed) · Date: July 01, 2018 16:51 · For: Chapter 4
His eyes zeroed in on his opponent, the architect of the ship trying to steal Elenwë from him and carry her out of his arm’s reach. Ecthelion wore a sullen expression with arms a crossed wall against his chest that slapped the image of the boy into Turgon’s mind. He shoved the boy away, locking him tight in the dungeon of his mind. The boy was dead and would never be reborn. He had been the greatest Kinslayer of them all. The boy had made his bed with the Enemy, now he must lie in it.

You killed his father you piece of piss! And anyone not completely blind would have seen it was an accident. But saving your precious Gondolin meant more than letting Eöl free. Ooh, I would love to see your face when you see Maeglin again, not as your prisoner, but free!

As of the others, the Valar measured worth by power. The weakest of the Maiar they considered little more than ants, and murdered them as such, crushing their bodies into dust and banishing their desecrated spirits to the Void. The strongest five of the fallen Maiar were given a chance of ‘redemption.’ They were entombed in feeble Mortal flesh, their powers crippled, and subjected to hundreds of Mortal lifetimes of toil and service on Middle-earth.

Ah, so this was what happened to Saruman and Gandalf?

Author's Response:

“You killed his father you piece of piss! And anyone not completely blind would have seen it was an accident. But saving your precious Gondolin meant more than letting Eöl free. Ooh, I would love to see your face when you see Maeglin again, not as your prisoner, but free!”

I love that the story has roused your righteous-rage! 

“Ah, so this was what happened to Saruman and Gandalf?

Yep, it was packed off to Middle-earth to them.  It made sense to me that the Valar, who had taken so little interest in Endor and its plights, would have only sent the wizards there as punishment.  It seemed like the kind of punishment the Valar would have thought really awful –wandering the earth as its servants, humbled, powers subdued.  Can you imagine one of the Vala doing such willingly?



Name: Kalendeer (Signed) · Date: July 01, 2018 16:39 · For: Chapter 6

I really like the way you portrait Anairë, how she struggles with not wanting to be a wife and mother, how powerful Earwen seems to be from her point of view. I look forward to meeting your Teleri and to see this alliance of queens fall upon Turgon!



Author's Response:

I am pleased to hear this!  I feel like I’ve finally gotten some insight on characters like Anairë, who, before, were a blank to me.  To me, it feels like the story fleshes out more with a deeper look at these side-characters.

Thank you ever so much for these lovely reviews!!!  You encourage me so much!  Thank you :hugs:



Name: Kalendeer (Signed) · Date: July 01, 2018 16:10 · For: Chapter 5

Okay so if believed Turgon and Finarfin disliked each others, now I loose all hope that things may get better one day. If Fingolfin ever comes back from the dead, there's a kinslaying incoming (I guess than even Fëanor would get enraged by the end of the chapter).

I am really afraid for Elenwë and hope Turgon will leave her alone, even if I honestly double it. Perhaps she should pack her things and go to Alqualondë or Tol Eressä before it's too late :/



Author's Response:

Okay so if believed Turgon and Finarfin disliked each others, now I loose all hope that things may get better one day.”

Yes, there is no hope for these two ever patching things up.  Finarfin is so forgiving that, if Turgon really came to him with true remorse, he might forgive him.  But Turgon never will.  Even if there is hope of Turgon changing into a better man, he is never going to humble himself before Finarfin who he sees as stealing Elenwë from him.

I am really afraid for Elenwë and hope Turgon will leave her alone, even if I honestly double it. Perhaps she should pack her things and go to Alqualondë or Tol Eressä before it's too late :/”

I can see why you would be afraid!  But, as far as Turgon has fallen, I don’t see him harassing her.  I think he would seek to win her affections back, but Elenwë is the only person who he even semi-listens to the desires of anymore.  She told him he was suffocating her, and he’s going to take that into account before trying to woo her back.  But I doubt there is a world in which he doesn’t at least try to get her back –after he overcomes his pride that is.



Name: Kalendeer (Signed) · Date: July 01, 2018 15:04 · For: Chapter 3

The council:

It is so obvious here that the Exilees and the Noldor of Tirion have grown very much appart! It makes sense that Finarfin's council would have more women, since a huge majority of the one who stayed were women. As always I like the worldbuilding you do, it is very well thought.

Turgon Turgon Turgon. If Fëanor ever believed Fingolfin was obnoxious, then he never met former-King Turgon. I half expected him to just stand up and grab the crown at some point. I *really* hope Turgon and Finarfin can do better than this or things will turn very ugly.

Is that me or the Gondolodrim are considering attacking the Vanyar?

 

Finarfin and Elenwë

I love that it didn't work, because not everything rolls easily.

 

 

 



Author's Response:

“Turgon Turgon Turgon. If Fëanor ever believed Fingolfin was obnoxious, then he never met former-King Turgon”

:snorts:  Yep.  Feanor has no idea how easy he had it lol!

“Is that me or the Gondolodrim are considering attacking the Vanyar?”

Oh, no, it’s not just you!  Glad you caught that :)  And yep, that was Gondolin racism at its finniest.  Don’t have any Wood-elves to exploit?  How about trying the Vanyar?  Ugh. 

Finarfin and Elenwë

I love that it didn't work, because not everything rolls easily.”

Ah!  That is exactly what I was thinking when I wrote those two not working out!  Sometimes things just don’t work out.  And I wanted to write a relationship where the sex was just incompatible.  While there are great relationships that don’t need sex, I think Elenwë is the kind of person who does need sex in her romantic relationships.  Finarfin, so long deprived with loneliness at the base of his attraction, could have lived without the sex.  But I do want to write him getting a chance to explore his neglected sexuality in the future.



Name: Spiced Wine (Signed) · Date: July 01, 2018 14:41 · For: Chapter 4
I wonder if all the reborn’s will share this lack f memory, or is it that their memories have been repressed by the Valar? It was traumatic for Glorfindel to remember everything as when he touched the Silmaril, but would gradual remembrance and the frustration of that be much better? At any rate, the Gondolindrim seemed to recover relatively quickly.

It seems impossible to think of Fingolfin, or Fëanor or any of his sons or Fingon not recalling who they were. But if that is the way it will be, they would have to be reborn into a Valar-free environment, or they would end up snatched up and sitting like puppets at the Valar’s feet, completely brainwashed! It’s almost impossible to imagine them like that, to be honest, and incredibly horrific for anyone. Of course the Valar would love that!

Author's Response:

“I wonder if all the reborn’s will share this lack f memory, or is it that their memories have been repressed by the Valar?”

It is totally the Valar.  They want to try and keep control of the rebels, but as you pointed out before, their control has been slipping –thus why the Dead are being reborn at all.  The Valar didn’t repress the Gondolindrim’s memories tho because 1. Most were Valar worshipers and 2. It served the Valar’s purpose of sowing chaos in the Noldor’s ranks.

“It seems impossible to think of Fingolfin, or Fëanor or any of his sons or Fingon not recalling who they were.”

Ah, well, I might have something else planned for them :winks:



Name: Kalendeer (Signed) · Date: July 01, 2018 14:14 · For: Chapter 2

Things are going to end badly between Finarfin and Turgon, I think. As unlikable as Turgon is, I wonder how things would have happened if the affair between Finarfin and Elenwë wasn't there to sour their relationship. Perhaps Turgon would be less quick to push his uncle aside, and perhaps Finarfin would find it easier to speak to him.

I hope Turgon is not going to stiffle Elenwë and her changes are temporary. It is good to adjust to him to help him back... as long as it does not drain too much of herself.



Author's Response:

“I wonder how things would have happened if the affair between Finarfin and Elenwë wasn't there to sour their relationship. Perhaps Turgon would be less quick to push his uncle aside, and perhaps Finarfin would find it easier to speak to him.”

This is a good what if.  I think things would have ended far better, as Turgon really spun out of control over his jealousy and hatred of Finarfin for ‘taking what was his.’  Of course, there was always the secret of the horrors of Gondolin Turgon would have done anything to keep from getting out.  And Turgon is too used to being in control to sit back and enjoy his new life.

“ It is good to adjust to him to help him back... as long as it does not drain too much of herself.”

Yes, if their relationship had been a healthy one, as it once was, compromises are not necessary a bad thing (tho letting him dictate her dress was a bit much).  But in the end she was the only one compromising, the only one sacrificing for the ‘us.’  So she ended up folding herself back into a person she no longer was, while this new overbearing Turgon failed to recognize that this was not her and she was not happy.



Name: Kalendeer (Signed) · Date: July 01, 2018 13:41 · For: Chapter 1

The moment I read about Nessa and the beasts was the moment I understood how much I missed your writings! The fading of the Valar is wonderfully written, the consequences both beautiful and dire. I do not know if you know the game Dark Souls, but it has the same feeling of gods turning to threatening husks of themselves, to be hunted and dissolved or just forgotten somewhere. I wonder what horror could be unleashed by the fading of Tulaks or Mandos!

Yay for Finarfin! It is great to see him standing in front of Manwë, seeking justice and his kin. I look forward to him having his family back :)



Author's Response:

“The moment I read about Nessa and the beasts was the moment I understood how much I missed your writings! The fading of the Valar is wonderfully written, the consequences both beautiful and dire.”

Thank you!  I am thrilled you liked it!  It hit me out of left-field, but the moment it came to me, I knew it felt right.  The Valar fading and loosing their bodies is like the peeling back of their lies.  They are reduced to the essence of what they are, no more playing at all knowing deities, no more pretending they were anything like the Children at all.  They never really could understand the Children, because they were, in truth, only power and will wrapped up in the bodies of Elves.

I have never played that game, but it fits so well, that idea of the Valar dissolving first to be husks of themselves, and then, at last, so little of them left, that they are entirely forgotten, just wisps of what had once been one of the Powers that Sung the world into being now blowing away on a stiff breeze.

I think Mandos would be freaking terrifying, and all kinds of dangerous.  The god of death dissolved into the fabric of the world :shudders:



Name: Spiced Wine (Signed) · Date: July 01, 2018 13:17 · For: Chapter 4
I thought Ecthelion in Gondolin reminded me a bit of Aredhel, always rushing off to the next new thing to try and cope with a lack inside. In her case it was a mental illness, in his case it was an emptiness and a jealousy of Glorfindel. Of course most men would be jealous of Glorfindel, because despite all his own anguish, he never lost his deep conviction of rightness.

For all Ecthelion was, he was a facade, and deep within, he knew he was, and hated Glorfindel thinking he was so sure of himself, his convictions, and wanted to spoil that, defile it, to make Glorfindel less (in his mind) if he could not ‘be’ him, and treating him like a whore and leaving him ashamed helped him to kill a little of the ‘beloved Glorfindel’ every time.
He did not deserve to die like this, but he does need to ask Glorfindel’s forgiveness when they meet. It’s a shame he was so awful in Gondolin, because he could have been a good ally. But that would have been a different story. He has possibilities, even if they came too late in his first life, and never had time to come to fruition in this.



Author's Response:

I like your comparison between Ecthelion and Aredhel.  Now you pointed it out, I can see the similarities too.  They both had a deep discontent inside, a hungry for something that drove them on and on, both running –she from her mind, him from the man in the mirror.

“ It’s a shame he was so awful in Gondolin, because he could have been a good ally. But that would have been a different story.”

Yes, there were so many possibilities in Gondolin, so many people that if they had just done one thing different, or just had a good conversation together, could have changed everything.  I think about Maeglin, Glorfindel, Celebrimbor, Aredhel, and Ecthelion too.  They were all existing around each other, trapped in their own bubbles.  And yet they could not intersect and band together because that, indeed, would have been a different story that ended quite differently.  Especially Glorfindel’s story, he couldn’t make friends and find acceptance in Celebrimbor.  His relationship with Ecthelion couldn’t work out.  He couldn’t come to understand Maeglin until it was too late.  Otherwise, his whole story arch would have changed and he wouldn’t have been the person Maglor finally met. 



Name: Spiced Wine (Signed) · Date: July 01, 2018 11:41 · For: Chapter 3
I think Elenwë was a complete nitwit to tell Turgon about Finarfin. She probably believes honesty is the best policy, but no-one, ever, should tell their partner absolutely everything. Often there is no need especially in the case of previous attachments that are nothing to do with the current one. She probably thought Turgon was the old Turgon, the one she’s remembered for so long, but he’s not.

I do understand why she went to Finarfin, although directly after bedding Turgon seems a little distasteful to me, for Finarfin, mainly. They should have ‘tested’ this out before he ever came back to learn they were not suited, but then people do stupid things all the time, especially in relationships, and Elenwë has just forced herself to see that loving a memory is not the same as loving a returned husband who has not improved in the interim.

Finarfin has not had much luck with women, although Elenwë is a good friend, so who is going to be the one (later) to discover his need to be dominated?



Author's Response:

“I think Elenwë was a complete nitwit to tell Turgon about Finarfin. She probably believes honesty is the best policy, but no-one, ever, should tell their partner absolutely everything. Often there is no need especially in the case of previous attachments that are nothing to do with the current one. She probably thought Turgon was the old Turgon, the one she’s remembered for so long, but he’s not.”

Yes, she told Turgon early on before she gained a clearer understanding how very much he was not the man she remembered.  But even if he had been, she shouldn’t have told him about Finarfin, not if she really intended nothing more to happen between Finarfin and her.  I think she did it out of a desire to unload her guilt (even tho they had only really shared kisses, she had wanted more, and she knew it).  I also wonder if sharing everything was an aspect of her past relationship with Turgon.  She was a poicindis, raised to be submissive to her husband, perhaps part of that training conditioned her to share all her secrets with her husband? 

I do understand why she went to Finarfin, although directly after bedding Turgon seems a little distasteful to me, for Finarfin, mainly. They should have ‘tested’ this out before he ever came back to learn they were not suited, but then people do stupid things all the time, especially in relationships, and Elenwë has just forced herself to see that loving a memory is not the same as loving a returned husband who has not improved in the interim.”

I agree that people do foolish things and make mistakes, especially in relationships.  She was in a bad place, feeling her marriage fall apart around her after wait three ages of the world to get Turgon back.  She had denied herself Finarfin, making herself wait and ignore her body’s desires.  But nothing with Turgon was going the way it was supposed to.  I don’t even think she thought much about why she was seeking Finarfin out beforehand.  She had just had a bout of sex with Turgon in which half of her wanted him gone from her bed and his suffocating touch off her body, and she reached out to Finarfin who had always made her feel free. 

“Finarfin has not had much luck with women, although Elenwë is a good friend, so who is going to be the one (later) to discover his need to be dominated?”

Who says it’s going to be a woman :wink:  Finarfin, like most Elves in this universe is bi.  But he grew up in Valinor’s repressive society, and his first desire was for a woman, so he hasn’t explored this side of himself yet.  As for who…honestly, I don’t know.  I’ve considered lots of potentials, but none fit quite right.  We will have to see what the writing unearths :)



Name: Spiced Wine (Signed) · Date: July 01, 2018 10:23 · For: Chapter 5
So, I actually do see this Turgon as a move from controlling, stone-faced king of Gondolin, to unforgivable psychopath. It all fits. I was rereading Maeglin in Gondolin last week and Turgon’s treatment of him was dreadful. He ended up a man with no compassion save for himself, nurturing his bereavement as if it were something to be cultivated. Even the sons of Fëanor did not turn into Turgon even after losing their father and brothers, their destructiveness was mainly turned inward. I cannot even count the second and third kinslayings because they were driven by the Oath. And I read an article once explaining how people don’t realise how unbreakable that was; it is different for Elves. Oaths were living things to them.
Maglor berated himself for not being able to love Elrond and Elros enough, but Turgon would not even have tried. There’s the difference in a nutshell. Elwing took away their hope, Eöl took away Turgon’s sister, both had children, and yet Maeglin was mistrusted, scorned, hated, and Maedhros and Maglor did their best with Elrond and Elros.
People don’t need tampering by the Valar to be sh$%s, some can manage it all by themselves, (looking at you most of the lords of Gondolin).

Although, unlike Cheeky, I thought Turgon was an arse from the beginning, and in the Silmarillion because of the Dagor Bragollach. I cannot imagine a Fëanorion, of Fingolfin or Fingon not going to aid his family, no matter what any Valar might have said. And Glorfindel who originally thought Gondolin was a secret war machine waiting to fall on Morgoth and vanish back into secrecy, came to learn it was not! Turgon protected it like his own beating heart.



Author's Response:

“nurturing his bereavement as if it were something to be cultivated.”

Ah, this is such a good way of describing how he handled –mishandled—his grief.  He didn’t want to move on.  He didn’t try, but let it destroy all the good parts inside him until he was a shell of a man.

“Maglor berated himself for not being able to love Elrond and Elros enough, but Turgon would not even have tried. There’s the difference in a nutshell. Elwing took away their hope, Eöl took away Turgon’s sister, both had children, and yet Maeglin was mistrusted, scorned, hated, and Maedhros and Maglor did their best with Elrond and Elros.”

This was a perfect example of their differences.  Even after losing so much, Maglor did not turn inward to the same extent as Turgon.  Yes, it was harder to connect to the world around him, harder to love, but through he struggled to do it he tried and kept trying.

I also think about their differing reactions to the mistreatment of the Wood-elves.  The Feanorions were not perfect, and, indeed, atrocities were committed in their lands.  The difference being that those atrocities were not sanctioned by word or law, and when brought before the Feanorions the criminals were punished.

“And Glorfindel who originally thought Gondolin was a secret war machine waiting to fall on Morgoth and vanish back into secrecy, came to learn it was not!”

Poor Glorfindel.  He got manipulated into going and then trapped inside Gondolin!  Oh, how different his life would have been outside those prison walls!  I wish desperately to write an Au of my own story where Glorfindel and Maeglin team up at the beginning instead of wasting years on misunderstandings, and re-write history together.



Name: Spiced Wine (Signed) · Date: July 01, 2018 10:01 · For: Chapter 6
But this lack of fire and color in Valinor, this sheet of grey and depression that I felt writing it through Finarfin’s eyes, was like a character in itself, an essential part of the story that I needed to convey. So I am so pleased to hear that it came through so strongly in the story and left you feeling that emptiness where the fire should have been. We see the world without the Feanorions and the most passionate of House Finwe, and it is a dreary place! I think, if the Dead were never reborn, the Elves really would have faded from the world.

Yes, that is definitely the feeling I was left with. Even in the turmoil of Valinor before the Exile, there was fire, there was resolve, fireworks of passion and hate and love. Now, it’s like a November fog.

I honestly can’t think Idril would make a good queen; she is too stringent, and it’s no good her boasting of how she lead the refugees from Gondolin, because while that is true technically, she wouldn’t have been able to had Glorfindel not sacrificed himself. And a ruler has to have vision, which she does not, she’s rigid to a fault.

You know what strikes me? The women seem to come into their own with other women. I always feel that about the SIlmarillion, maybe because they are dimmed by the brightness of so many of the male characters, but left to themselves, with other women, they seem to find themselves.

I totally agree it was necessary to set this scene, and feel that it needs a firestorm to clear it, which I hope we will have! At this point I would even welcome Sauron, lol. At least he wasn’t dreary. And, oh, yes, I remember when reading about him in Vengeance II where Celebrimbor ‘saw’ parts snipped out of his soul. I thought first it was Melkor, but it was the Valar. So, yes, however it plays out, I do think he should face them again. Not sure the ‘disguise’ would work again. ‘I am definitely, absolutely, *not* Sauron, trust me on this.’ XD

Oh, poor Finarfin :( That is a final insult, although perhaps he feels in some awful way that he deserved it, an emasculated man un-kinged. But he didn’t. As you say, he would be a perfect mediator. And as for Turgon, having Ecthelion broken and stuffed in a chest and then this, don;t even get me started. I raged most of yesterday about him!

I wonder what Celebrían did to keep herself safe from the call of Mandos, poor thing — something she learned in Middle-earth? It was powerful anyhow. (Sorry with all these observations, I simply bolted down these chapters yesterday like a starving man! Gulp! So my reviews were off the top of my head, and I am re-reading again more slowly)

And oh, gosh, you are so welcome. I have rarely, ever, read any stories that evoke so much emotion in me, that are unputdownable, not published books, not fanfic. The Silmarillion, of course, (but wanting to change it) and Ziggy’s Sons of Thunder series. It’s a gift that is so rare. Books to me are like food and water, necessary, but some are like a banquet!

Author's Response:

I honestly can’t think Idril would make a good queen”

Too right you are!  And you have her pegged: she is too ridged.  She lives in a black and white world, and she expects people to get with her program or suffer the consequences.

“You know what strikes me? The women seem to come into their own with other women. I always feel that about the SIlmarillion, maybe because they are dimmed by the brightness of so many of the male characters, but left to themselves, with other women, they seem to find themselves.”

I feel that in your story too.  It’s like the woman have their own thing going on in the background and sometimes we get a peak at what they are up to and we see them thriving just fine on their own :)

“At this point I would even welcome Sauron, lol. At least he wasn’t dreary. And, oh, yes, I remember when reading about him in Vengeance II where Celebrimbor ‘saw’ parts snipped out of his soul. I thought first it was Melkor, but it was the Valar. So, yes, however it plays out, I do think he should face them again. Not sure the ‘disguise’ would work again. ‘I am definitely, absolutely, *not* Sauron, trust me on this.’ XD”

Lol even Sauron would be an improvement!  What an advertisement for Valinor :D  I am not sure how it will happen, but it would be interesting to see him healed when he shows up again –tho maybe he would cease to be Sauron to such an extent he would lose his interest.  I will have to keep mulling over his grand entrance.

“I wonder what Celebrían did to keep herself safe from the call of Mandos, poor thing — something she learned in Middle-earth? It was powerful anyhow.”

I think (not sure yet) that she saw something about Este in Elmirion’s mirror, either a secret she could twist the Valar’s arm into helping her with, or something to soften the Vala to her.  While some of the ritual might very well have been Sindar or Wood-elf magic, she determined she needed the powerful punch of a Vala behind it to work.  As we see, she is a lot more aware of the world than other houseless souls.

“And oh, gosh, you are so welcome. I have rarely, ever, read any stories that evoke so much emotion in me, that are unputdownable, not published books, not fanfic. The Silmarillion, of course, (but wanting to change it) and Ziggy’s Sons of Thunder series. It’s a gift that is so rare. Books to me are like food and water, necessary, but some are like a banquet!”

Thank you again :)  It amazes and rejuvenates me to know how highly you think of the story.  It makes me all the more determined to finish and do right by the story! And I don’t know what I’d do without reading either.  What a bleak life!



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