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Set directly after A Throne of Shadows, with the Clouds now gutted by fire, events move to the north-west of Scotland. The...
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In honor of Sir Christopher Lee: Scenes from the life of Saruman. The sad and dreadful fate of the many-coloured wizard.
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In Imladris, Erestor receives news and reminisces about the present and the past.

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Shoutbox

Spiced Wine
11/20/20 09:41 am
Happy Friday everyone, take care and keep safe
Spiced Wine
11/13/20 02:00 pm
I don’t know why it glitches, Gabriel, but the software is old. Thank you, you too!
Gabriel
11/13/20 11:09 am
Thank you, Spiced. Yes, I finally figured out I could go back and edit the characters.:D You have a good weekend.
Spiced Wine
11/13/20 09:52 am
Happy Friday, everyone, keep safe and well
Spiced Wine
11/13/20 09:52 am
I can add her, Gabriel. There is a glitch with the list, in fact, I have to post then go back and add characters
Gabriel
11/12/20 10:20 pm
Okay, I've figured out how I can get around it.
Gabriel
11/12/20 08:53 pm
And it seems everytime I press on 'fiction' in the category options the character list reduces. Anyway, my dear Spiced, could we add "Anaire" to the list please.
Gabriel
11/12/20 08:49 pm
I don't know why I'm having so many problems with posting. It's not the usual problem. Now it's the character list stops at 'N' for me. I'm sure it went further than that.
Naledi
11/07/20 10:25 pm
Sending hugs to everyone. Ziggy - I've been thinking of you. I can't begin to imagine how hard your job must be at the moment xxx
Naledi
11/07/20 10:22 pm
Feeling just a little bit lighter after today's result xxx
Shout Archive



Name: Kalendeer (Signed) · Date: September 26, 2020 22:33 · For: Chapter 23

"Hi, Kalendeer  :waves:  I hope this finds you doing well" Very well, and I hope it's the same for you !

"Did you think I would give you a nice, happy reunion?  :evil laughs:" I live with hope but it's true you never make things easy for them XD

"lol but, yeah, I don't think things are as hopeless between them as it seems in this chapter.  The most important thing is that they both still love each other.  Now they just need to understand each other.  I think, once they understand where the other is at, they can rebuild their relationship on solid ground." Alright this put a little hope back into the hope-engine! This family WILL get a happy ending at some point! Of course they have millenia to reach it and in the meantime we suffer with them, but, but no matter your evil laughs! I know in your heart you just want them to hug and hug and hug forever!

"Thank you so much for reading and taking the time to review!  It feels wonderful to know you are still enjoying the story (massive delays between postings and all, ugh!)." Well fanfic writers write at their own pace, and I still remembered enough to know what the chapter was about, so it's fine! I'm still rooting for them! And hoping they get poor Fëanaro our of prison at some point!



Author's Response:
"Very well, and I hope it's the same for you !"

Yep, not too bad :)

"Alright this put a little hope back into the hope-engine! This family WILL get a happy ending at some point! Of course they have millenia to reach it and in the meantime we suffer with them, but, but no matter your evil laughs! I know in your heart you just want them to hug and hug and hug forever!"
Of course!  I can't handle sad endings!  What is the point in leaving us all feelings hopeless at the end of all this?  No way!  

"And hoping they get poor Fëanaro our of prison at some point!"

He will, never fear!  When I started this last installment of the series I had no idea how much leg work I would have to get through before the rebirths really start taking off.  At least we are almost to a big turning point in the story, a part 2 as you will.  From there hopefully things will start avalanching?  One can hope!



Name: Spiced Wine (Signed) · Date: September 25, 2020 9:23 · For: Chapter 23
Finwe was able to understand Fingolfin so much better because this was him. He was the ultimate source of self-repression, for ALL the Noldor. Culture norms start from somewhere, and in this case, it was the Noldor's desire to emulate their king. First it spilled over into the court, and from there into the rest of the culture. I mean, just ordinary Mortal king's/leaders have huge cultural impacts on their people, not take that and multiply it by all the lifetimes of Men Finwe was king for!

Yes. I remember Fingolfin wanting to be better at just one thing than his brother, even when he was young (cries!) but it became second-nature to don that mask all the time, until death. It’s so sad.

Honestly, the only time I ever liked Finwë was when he was actually accepting of Eöl, just before Eöl was captured, which was so tragic and just stays with me :( After, and certainly in Valinor, he seems to have moulded himself into a different person just as Fingolfin moulded himself into what he (outwardly) became.

Author's Response:
"Honestly, the only time I ever liked Finwë was when he was actually accepting of Eöl, just before Eöl was captured, which was so tragic and just stays with me :( After, and certainly in Valinor, he seems to have moulded himself into a different person just as Fingolfin moulded himself into what he (outwardly) became."

Yes, I feel the same.  He really became another person in Valinor -but I don't think he was the only one.  The Noldor (and Vanyar and Teleri) never could have become the far more oppressive societies that they did under the Valar if those that remembered what they had been before kept fighting against the change.  I say 'kept fighting' because I do think they did resist the changes at first, but I wonder how much that first generation of Elves felt trapped in their choice to follow the Valar to Valinor?  We know they couldn't leave.  When did they really find out they couldn't?  I think some of them tried to leave after the first relief of finally being safe faded and they realized they Valar wanted them to change.  It didn't turn into open rebellion because the Valar were more charismatic back then (some of them at least), and more involved with the Elves, walking among them, teaching them, picking up followings, and were able to either cajole or suppress the Elves into settling and silencing them.  The fear that they couldn't go back and must not talk about the past became deeply seeded into that generation.  This was their life now, they couldn't go back, aand it was easier if they didn't dwell on what they had once been.

Maybe I could find a way to write this into the story...I have plans for Finwe and Miriel's rebirth (and even Indis' memories of things when Finwe returns), so this might come up!


Name: Kalendeer (Signed) · Date: September 21, 2020 21:46 · For: Chapter 23

Oh noooooooo T_T I was hoping so hard that Nerdanel could be reunited with Caranthir and they would just hug and love each other and everything would be fine ! But things are never fine T_T I do hope they will manage after a while and find common ground. And that Caranthir will save all of those still in Mandos !



Author's Response:
Hi, Kalendeer  :waves:  I hope this finds you doing well

Did you think I would give you a nice, happy reunion?  :evil laughs:  lol but, yeah, I don't think things are as hopeless between them as it seems in this chapter.  The most important thing is that they both still love each other.  Now they just need to understand each other.  I think, once they understand where the other is at, they can rebuild their relationship on solid ground.

Thank you so much for reading and taking the time to review!  It feels wonderful to know you are still enjoying the story (massive delays between postings and all, ugh!).


Name: Spiced Wine (Signed) · Date: September 19, 2020 17:18 · For: Chapter 23

I have actually been giving this some thought, and concluded that Feanor WOULD get on his knees for some people. His sons top of the list, but Fingolfin too after they had come to understand each other. The think about Feanor is that he is utterly unashamed of his feelings. He feels thing like a hurricane and doesn't try to hide them. To him, getting on his knees, begging for his sons to forgive him, wouldn't be a degradation to him in any way, it would be an extension of his love, a visual representation of it. This is the guy who fell down as one dead when he heard of Finwe's death, right there in front of thousands, even the Valar. He didn't try to hide his pain, and he wasn't ashamed if all the world saw it. It's actually Fingolfin who I can't see getting on his knees. He takes such care NOT to let his emotions show. He prides himself on being able to keep it all inside, and did for so long he no longer knows how to let himself become vulnerable. When he heard of Feanor's death, he didn't break down weeping or raging, he held it inside until he was completely alone, so alone not even the echos of his cries could be overheard. Only then did he allow himself to morn. All this repressing isn't healthy. He didn't feel any less than Feanor, he just internalized it and fell into a depression no one else even knew about until finally he committed suicide by Morgoth. So, I can't see Fingolfin begging anyone for forgiveness...maybe Fingon for leaving him like that, but even so, I imagine it would STILL be a restrained conversation, in the sense that Fingolfin would do his best to try and keep the intensity of his emotion hidden from Fingon (tho Fingon knows his father well enough to see it). And Feanor is one of the last people he would expose vulnerabilities to, not until he knew for certain that Feanor felt the same....which doesn't bode well for an easy fix between these two the minute of their rebirth! That would be to simple lol.

 

Oh, wow, I just read this on your comments, and I think this is so spot on. Fëanor would not think twice of going on his knees before his sons or Fingolfin.

Fingolfin, however...he did drop all that control in the Halls of Mandos, and it was magnificent to see! (Oh my heart pounded for him, and broke!) But with Fëanor, unless he has proof from Fëanor that there is love, regret, then I think those masks will be reconstructed when Fingolfin returns. Because he has no idea what Fëanor has done in that prison. (Cries!)

It has always saddened me deeply that Fingolfin was seen as such a rock, to Glorfindel, to Aredhel, who wanted to go back to him before she died, and to well...all his people really, when inside he was so broken, so depressed. What an incredible character you have created in him!



Author's Response:
"Fingolfin, however...he did drop all that control in the Halls of Mandos, and it was magnificent to see! (Oh my heart pounded for him, and broke!) But with Fëanor, unless he has proof from Fëanor that there is love, regret, then I think those masks will be reconstructed when Fingolfin returns. Because he has no idea what Fëanor has done in that prison. (Cries!)"

Yeah, Fingolfin is the one who'd hold it all in.  But, like we saw in Mandos, that in no ways means he feels any less!  He has just as much passion and fire inside.  I would like to point the finger at Indis and Finwe's awful parenting for this, but, in truth, it wasn't entirely their fault.  Fingolfin himself decided to mold himself into this, but that wasn't a decision made in a vacuum, culture played a big hand in it.  He grew up in a culture that considered the kind of repression Fingolfin practiced the ideal, and Feanor was never able (or wanted) to achieve it, so, a Fingolfin who was feeling rejected and abandoned by Feanor (and constantly compared to him) deciding to master something Feanor was never able to?  Yeah.  Also, bad parenting came into it, defiantly.  Indis wanted him to be the 'perfect' Noldo, and Finwe responded positively to Fingolfin's more 'normal' emotions/behavior compared to Feanor.  Finwe was able to understand Fingolfin so much better because this was him.  He was the ultimate source of self-repression, for ALL the Noldor.  Culture norms start from somewhere, and in this case, it was the Noldor's desire to emulate their king.  First it spilled over into the court, and from there into the rest of the culture.  I mean, just ordinary Mortal king's/leaders have huge cultural impacts on their people, not take that and multiply it by all the lifetimes of Men Finwe was king for!

All that said, I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Fingolfin will be able to learn to have a healthy mind-set in the future and stop thinking he needs to hide everything he's feeling!


Name: FirstAmazon (Signed) · Date: August 18, 2020 19:08 · For: Chapter 23

Oops sorry it took me a while to reply this!

He will be one of the last, in a sense....:SPOILER ALERT: when they break open the doors of Mandos, they lead all the souls out, but then the souls need to rebuild their own bodies.  Some are able to do this, other souls, not so much...what happens next I will leave to be discovered!  But Fingon is defiantly there for Maedhros!  I couldn't let Maedhros come back without him!  I already destroyed him his first time around :weeps:

Huuuuum this sounds absolutely thrilling and interesting! I can't wait for it, really! I can almost see Fingon nurturing Maedhros' soul like Elurín did for Caranthir (my new favorite family of this tale, you can tell, right? hahaha)

Well, there were certainly people around she COULD have reached out to, like Finarfin and Elenwe, but that didn't mean she did.  She was technically in the resistance, but spent her time largely in isolation until Aredhel came to live with her, and even then...Aredhel was another human body around offering her vital human contact, but...Aredhel couldn't remember any of the traumas and grief Nerdanel was going through, she wasn't the best support system.  I think, if we had see more of Nerdanial from the time before Elmririon and Maeglin came to live with her, we would have seen a woman who's very mind had deteriorated from the years of isolation and depression.  She barley left her house, even for a walk in the sunlight, and spent her time in art, trying to escape the memories.  She has gotten a lot better since then, but hasn't really begun to deal with the deeper issues.

I see your point. She could have moved on, but she chose not to, and to cling to those awful memories. I supposed that happens sometimes with people who suffer some sort of trauma, to be reliving it and not being able to put it aside. I agree that Aredhel would've not been comfort to anyone, but I was hoping that the contact with Finarfin and Elenwë had changed her. Oh, well, you are right, of course - the longer she tried to escape her memories, the longer she sank. I feel bad for her, even if I know hers was the wrong approach to begin with. But we cannot blame someone for not being able to cope, right? She needs help, and I wonder who (if anyone) will provide it to her... :/ 

Nope, not unbiased at all!  I was more thinking about how Gildor would be a great support system since he's so optimistic and kind; he could uplift anyone's heart :D

It's true, Gildor is marvelous. And Glorfindel, too. I wager what in the hell their arrival will stirr with Nerdanel - Maglor and Glorfindel being father and son AND lovers. Boy, things just get more and more complicated! xD

But he DOESN'T repent of his words/actions against the Valar or denying them the Silmarils or even way back to his nonacceptance of Indis in his life.  And he's not going to come back to Nerdanel on his knees asking for forgiveness for ever driving her away and asking for another chance for the two of them to try and build a life together with their sons.  She's not going to get that, she's not going to ever be with him again, and she needs to move on from him.  It was a relationship that failed, that was actively damaging for her, the last thing she needs is to start it again.  I think what she needs most is to work through the damage her marriage with Feanor left her with -her bitterness and insecurities.  And she needs to build a relationship with her sons again.  If she could come to a place of peace with herself and be secure in their love again, she could spend the rest of her life in contentment. (and maybe, after she's worked things out within herself, she will meet someone who can love her back just as much as she loves him).


Yes, I agree with you that he doesn't repent a bit regarding the Valar. And of course I don't see him kneeling for Nerdanel asking for forgiveness! Fëanor wouldn't do that for anyone, perhaps to Fingolfin (and even so... doubtful xD). What I meant is that he could repent of his own actions that lead to their estrangement - that is not a thing that happens one-way only, it took the two of them to fuck it up. And I'm not saying he SHOULD do it, or that it's the right thing, only that I think Nerdanel *expects* him to. Of course, neither of them need that relationship back, but they need to settle things out. If they will manage? I doubt it - it's Fëanor, who are we kidding? hahahaha. Again, I'm not saying that this is what he should do, but these are some of the things I'm afraid she might hope, deep inside, will be the only things that will heal her, and him asking for forgiveness (likely on his knees) is one of them. And she is so very wrong - she is depositing her happiness and future well-being in someone else (again) who is utterly unreliable when it comes to giving her what she needs/expects.  


Yes, to this!  She should be clear on where she stands now, but I think it might just be a matter of pride for her now. 1. it's hard to admit you were in the wrong and 2. she thinks it should be obvious to him if he really cared to know.  She is, after all, hiding resistance fighters from the Valar, is, in fact, living in the central headquarters for the movement.  But to Caranthir it's not obvious because he knows she's not the kind of person to snitch.  She never sold out Feanor no matter how bad their marriage deteriorated, everything he'd confided in her stayed with her.  So that she would keep Elmririon and the other's secrets is no surprise.  Maybe tho, after that conversation with Caranthir, she will think on it and decide to be more upfront about her change of heart.


That would be a great way of starting to take her life back on her own hands, and I can only hope that she will do it - even if I see it as a little bit too much to hope. But, who knows, she HAS a lot of support beside her - Elmírion, Maeglin, Celebrían... if only she allows herself to heal...! *wistful sigh* :P



Author's Response:
"I feel bad for her, even if I know hers was the wrong approach to begin with. But we cannot blame someone for not being able to cope, right? She needs help, and I wonder who (if anyone) will provide it to her... :/ "

I feel bad for her too; she's not had it easy, even staying in Valinor...in fact, it probably would have been better for her if she had left with her sons.  Choosing them in that moment would have gone a long way to repairing what had been broken, and I wish she had been able to be there with Curufin especially; he needed all her love.  He was actually her favorite son, tho she tried not to play favorites, Caranthir picked up on it.  He was easy to love as a child and reminded her of Feanor in their youths (a time she was happiest).  She never would have left Curufin's side, and I doubt, if she had been there, helping him, loving him, that his relationship with Celebrimbor would have deteriorated as badly as it did.  But these are all wishes for What ifs, and not how things went down.  In this world she was alone for millennium, isolated first by choice and then by the deep depression she fell into.  She does need help, you're right, and I hope she gets it!

"And Glorfindel, too. I wager what in the hell their arrival will stirr with Nerdanel - Maglor and Glorfindel being father and son AND lovers. Boy, things just get more and more complicated! xD"

Oh Man!  What a scene that would be!  I think they will keep their relationship quiet tho.  They know that it's very taboo, and the Feanorions don't need to be drawing more attention to themselves at such a critical moment (they will return before the jail-break when the resistance will be in need of its alliances, and every Feanor just breathing will keep those alliances on a knife's edge).

"And of course I don't see him kneeling for Nerdanel asking for forgiveness! Fëanor wouldn't do that for anyone, perhaps to Fingolfin (and even so... doubtful xD). "

I have actually been giving this some thought, and concluded that Feanor WOULD get on his knees for some people.  His sons top of the list, but Fingolfin too after they had come to understand each other.  The think about Feanor is that he is utterly unashamed of his feelings.  He feels thing like a hurricane and doesn't try to hide them.  To him, getting on his knees, begging for his sons to forgive him, wouldn't be a degradation to him in any way, it would be an extension of his love, a visual representation of it.  This is the guy who fell down as one dead when he heard of Finwe's death, right there in front of thousands, even the Valar.  He didn't try to hide his pain, and he wasn't ashamed if all the world saw it.  It's actually Fingolfin who I can't see getting on his knees.  He takes such care NOT to let his emotions show.  He prides himself on being able to keep it all inside, and did for so long he no longer knows how to let himself become vulnerable.  When he heard of Feanor's death, he didn't break down weeping or raging, he held it inside until he was completely alone, so alone not even the echos of his cries could be overheard.  Only then did he allow himself to morn.  All this repressing isn't healthy.  He didn't feel any less than Feanor, he just internalized it and fell into a depression no one else even knew about until finally he committed suicide by Morgoth.  So, I can't see Fingolfin begging anyone for forgiveness...maybe Fingon for leaving him like that, but even so, I imagine it would STILL be a restrained conversation, in the sense that Fingolfin would do his best to try and keep the intensity of his emotion hidden from Fingon (tho Fingon knows his father well enough to see it).  And Feanor is one of the last people he would expose vulnerabilities to, not until he knew for certain that Feanor felt the same....which doesn't bode well for an easy fix between these two the minute of their rebirth!  That would be to simple lol

"Again, I'm not saying that this is what he should do, but these are some of the things I'm afraid she might hope, deep inside, will be the only things that will heal her, and him asking for forgiveness (likely on his knees) is one of them. And she is so very wrong - she is depositing her happiness and future well-being in someone else (again) who is utterly unreliable when it comes to giving her what she needs/expects."

Ah!  I get where you're coming from and think you are 100% right! Yep, I can see Feanor coming back to her (on knees or otherwise) a secret but deep longing of hers, even if she has told herself a hundred times it will never happen, that doesn't stop her heart from yearning.  Because it's not really about Feanor humbling himself, or something, it's about her coming BACK.  But, again, you are totally right that it's never going to work out for her if she's pinning all her hopes on Feanor/ restarting her marriage with him.  He's not going to ever be able to give her her heart's desire.  

"But, who knows, she HAS a lot of support beside her - Elmírion, Maeglin, Celebrían... if only she allows herself to heal...! *wistful sigh* :P"

This, yes.  Things are different now, she's got people around her who are going to push her in the direction she needs to go.  Now I'm thinking about a scene to write between her and Celebrain.  Celebrain is probably her best bet on getting the support she needs right now.  It's not that Elmririon doesn't care, but he has a lot on his own plate and is Maeglin's main support system and never knew Nerdanel in his last life, nor does he have some of the similar life experiences that Celebrain has.  Celebrain is also a wife of a husband she's had to separate from (completely different circumstances, but similar longing and pain) she's also a mother to children who she might never see again (she may not know about Arwen, but her family is living through a war and the possibility of one of her children choosing mortality was always there).  Now I'm really curious what there relationship looks like, and what it's like when Aredhel comes back from patrols.  Aredhel isn't there often, but she'd add another dynamic, having knows Nerdanel longer, seen her at her most downhearted but sharing more in common with Celebrain, not to mention how having the tight bond between their sons might pull them together.  Gods, there are just so many relationships to explore even with this small pool of characters!  And we haven't even thrown in Finarfin and his sons!  

As always, I adore hearing from you, and we must never apologize for lateness when I am its queen lol



Name: Spiced Wine (Signed) · Date: August 18, 2020 9:45 · For: Chapter 23
but something I have noticed about the Feanor/Nerdanel ship is that Feanor is the one who's always in the wrong and Nerdanel the blameless partner who puts up with his shit. That just seems to be the vibe a lot of shippers of that ship are going for, and it's not like the Silm doesn't reinforce it with the whole 'Nerdanel restrained Feanor' or whatever that quote was. I gotta say that that quote is one of the main reasons I DON'T ship them. I don't think a partner is there to restrain the other; that sounds like a parent-child relationship to me.


I’ve never read any. But you’re perfectly right — from some of the stuff I see floating around. This is the only one I’ve read and the way I believe it was.

And I know the Fëanor/Fingolfin will be just as edge-of-the-seat as in R&U :D

Author's Response:
"And Iknowthe Fëanor/Fingolfin will be just as edge-of-the-seat as in R&U :D"

I will let your confidence give me courage :grins:


Name: Spiced Wine (Signed) · Date: August 16, 2020 14:53 · For: Chapter 23
And he's not going to come back to Nerdanel on his knees asking for forgiveness for ever driving her away and asking for another chance for the two of them to try and build a life together with their sons. She's not going to get that, she's not going to ever be with him again, and she needs to move on from him. It was a relationship that failed, that was actively damaging for her, the last thing she needs is to start it again. I think what she needs most is to work through the damage her marriage with Feanor left her with -her bitterness and insecurities. And she needs to build a relationship with her sons again. If she could come to a place of peace with herself and be secure in their love again, she could spend the rest of her life in contentment. (and maybe, after she's worked things out within herself, she will meet someone who can love her back just as much as she loves him).

There’s a huge contingent of people who create art of their reconciliation (with Fëanor on his knees and I’m so glad this won’t happen) I don’t actually see Fëanor repentant at all, or on his knees to anyone *cough* lol. Even in the Silm it only says they became estranged because she didn’t agree with his latter actions and left him, not that he was a wife-beater or cad, so why he would crawl back, or anyone would think it baffles me.

What I want to see, of course, is how Fëanor and Fingolfin will unravel their age long differences and misunderstands :D

Author's Response:
I don't tend to read fics where Feanor and Nerdnael are the main pairing (not because I hate it, but it just doesn't interest me unless the plot itself draws me in like a Feanor lives AU), but something I have noticed about the Feanor/Nerdanel ship is that Feanor is the one who's always in the wrong and Nerdanel the blameless partner who puts up with his shit.  That just seems to be the vibe a lot of shippers of that ship are going for, and it's not like the Silm doesn't reinforce it with the whole 'Nerdanel restrained Feanor' or whatever that quote was.  I gotta say that that quote is one of the main reasons I DON'T ship them.  I don't think a partner is there to restrain the other; that sounds like a parent-child relationship to me.

"What I want to see, of course, is how Fëanor and Fingolfin will unravel their age long differences and misunderstands :D"
Yes, Please!!!  We've only been waiting several Ages of the world for this, come on guys! lol


Name: FirstAmazon (Signed) · Date: August 14, 2020 2:30 · For: Chapter 23

I don't think he would have attacked her, more like, blanked her out.  His mind wouldn't have been able to process that wound on top of all the others.  He would have walked away without saying a word and the next time Nerdanel met him it would be like she was a ghost in the same room with him; he would have looked right through her as if she wasn't there and heard not a word she said.  My god, he can't get reborn alone, he just CAN"T!  (thank goodness I will not torture him like this!  It would have been too heartbreaking to stand!)
Oh gods, she'd better not! Again, I'd kill her myself if she harmed him like that! But aahh I'm soooo relieved to know you don't plan to make him wake up all by himself!! Have you got in mind who might it be? I suppose he will be one of the lasts, right? So maybe Fingon will have already been reborn before him and will HEAL HIM???? Hahahaha sorry, I can't control myself when it comes to these two. 

 

It takes resiliency to work through trauma.  And a support system which seems to be seriously lacking for a lot of them. Well. they won't be alone in being stuck in the past.  It seems to me that the Noldor are dealing with a society wide trauma that spanned centuries; while the Teleri and Sindar have the trauma of the Kingslayings to work through.  You know what everyone needs?  Counseling! (you were totally right!) But they need counseling from an unbiased third-party and good luck finding them! lol  Ah, well, with that out, I suppose it will just have to be each other they lean on.  (This is making me seriously want to transport Gildor to Valinor!  He'd rock their world!)

 

But wasn't there a support system? I mean, was she not a part of the Resistance (let's just call it that lol)? She has been by Finarfin and Elenwë's side all this time and still hasn't managed to work on her traumas? This seems to be some serious don't-want-to-let-go case. Hum. I wonder why, though. Now... as for a unbiased third party such as Gildor? HA! Him and overflowing-confident Glorfindel would shackle those chains to the core! But then... are they so unbiased? I don't think so, either... as long as people from their era start to be reborn... lol. What Nerdanel needs is to see Fëanor reborn and repented of all he did - because he is, even if he doesn't peep a word to anyone of what really happened in Mandos.  

 

And I don't blame Caranthir at all for going into that argument fearing his mother was still as brainwashed as ever, but not being able to stop himself from pressing her and pressing her, needing to hear that she no longer worshiped the ones who had destroyed them, but when he didn't hear that, shutting down that conversation, putting up the walls of his heart against her because he couldn't bear to keep speaking about that, couldn't bear to hear her defend them and peddle their lies on her lips. Once the two of them are ready to talk for real, he will learn his mother no longer supports the Valar, and it will lift a huge weight in their relationship, but until they are able to have that conversation, the tension will be thick.

 

Oh yeah, I can TOTALLY relate to that - thank god no one I know has fallen off like that! It would be terrible to see marriages fall apart because of it - but I DID see many families and friends estrange themselves, and maybe that's why I understand Caranthir's need for reassurance that he's not dealing with the same crap he has suffered, killed and died for. That's why my criticism goes toward Nerdanel. She was, let's say, the conservative/intolerant one, and, once you change your mind/side, you kinda need to make it pretty clear how wrong your conceptions were before people start trusting your judgment again, right? (this is also happening a lot here, countless people claiming their disappointment toward the government pffft). Anyway, I also understand that this is a very thorny subject - for us and for them lol - and I hope he doesn't suffer anymore because dammit enough's enough! xD

 

And I will also stop rambling and taking your time to answer me here, but you know my fingers twitch and I can't help myself, I get all giddy and excited :P



Author's Response:
"But aahh I'm soooo relieved to know you don't plan to make him wake up all by himself!! Have you got in mind who might it be? I suppose he will be one of the lasts, right? So maybe Fingon will have already been reborn before him and will HEAL HIM???? Hahahaha sorry, I can't control myself when it comes to these two."

Something like this :winks:  He will be one of the last, in a sense....:SPOILER ALERT: when they break open the doors of Mandos, they lead all the souls out, but then the souls need to rebuild their own bodies.  Some are able to do this, other souls, not so much...what happens next I will leave to be discovered!  But Fingon is defiantly there for Maedhros!  I couldn't let Maedhros come back without him!  I already destroyed him his first time around :weeps:

"But wasn't there a support system? I mean, was she not a part of the Resistance (let's just call it that lol)? She has been by Finarfin and Elenwë's side all this time and still hasn't managed to work on her traumas? This seems to be some serious don't-want-to-let-go case."

Well, there were certainly people around she COULD have reached out to, like Finarfin and Elenwe, but that didn't mean she did.  She was technically in the resistance, but spent her time largely in isolation until Aredhel came to live with her, and even then...Aredhel was another human body around offering her vital human contact, but...Aredhel couldn't remember any of the traumas and grief Nerdanel was going through, she wasn't the best support system.  I think, if we had see more of Nerdanial from the time before Elmririon and Maeglin came to live with her, we would have seen a woman who's very mind had deteriorated from the years of isolation and depression.  She barley left her house, even for a walk in the sunlight, and spent her time in art, trying to escape the memories.  She has gotten a lot better since then, but hasn't really begun to deal with the deeper issues.

"Now... as for a unbiased third party such as Gildor? HA! Him and overflowing-confident Glorfindel would shackle those chains to the core! But then... are they so unbiased?"

Nope, not unbiased at all!  I was more thinking about how Gildor would be a great support system since he's so optimistic and kind; he could uplift anyone's heart :D

"What Nerdanel needs is to see Fëanor reborn and repented of all he did - because he is, even if he doesn't peep a word to anyone of what really happened in Mandos."

Ah, but what consists of this 'all'?  He certainly feels immense remorse for the Oath and Kinslaying and leading his sons and people who put their trust in him and all the Exiles into their doom, and the steps he took that contributed to his feud with Fingolfin.  But he DOESN'T repent of his words/actions against the Valar or denying them the Silmarils or even way back to his nonacceptance of Indis in his life.  And he's not going to come back to Nerdanel on his knees asking for forgiveness for ever driving her away and asking for another chance for the two of them to try and build a life together with their sons.  She's not going to get that, she's not going to ever be with him again, and she needs to move on from him.  It was a relationship that failed, that was actively damaging for her, the last thing she needs is to start it again.  I think what she needs most is to work through the damage her marriage with Feanor left her with -her bitterness and insecurities.  And she needs to build a relationship with her sons again.  If she could come to a place of peace with herself and be secure in their love again, she could spend the rest of her life in contentment. (and maybe, after she's worked things out within herself, she will meet someone who can love her back just as much as she loves him).

"She was, let's say, the conservative/intolerant one, and, once you change your mind/side, you kinda need to make it pretty clear how wrong your conceptions were before people start trusting your judgment again, right?"

Yes, to this!  She should be clear on where she stands now, but I think it might just be a matter of pride for her now. 1. it's hard to admit you were in the wrong and 2. she thinks it should be obvious to him if he really cared to know.  She is, after all, hiding resistance fighters from the Valar, is, in fact, living in the central headquarters for the movement.  But to Caranthir it's not obvious because he knows she's not the kind of person to snitch.  She never sold out Feanor no matter how bad their marriage deteriorated, everything he'd confided in her stayed with her.  So that she would keep Elmririon and the other's secrets is no surprise.  Maybe tho, after that conversation with Caranthir, she will think on it and decide to be more upfront about her change of heart.

"And I will also stop rambling and taking your time to answer me here, but you know my fingers twitch and I can't help myself, I get all giddy and excited :P"

hehehe well I'm rambling right back, so thank you for YOUR time :grins: 


Name: Spiced Wine (Signed) · Date: August 12, 2020 9:45 · For: Chapter 23

As FirstAmazon said: Awww I missed the discussions, too! Specially those regardin this fabulous story! And you know you can talk my ear off as much as you want!

 

Mine too! lol



Author's Response:

You guys spoil me too much :hugs:



Name: FirstAmazon (Signed) · Date: August 12, 2020 1:35 · For: Chapter 23

Awww I missed the discussions, too! Specially those regardin this fabulous story! And you know you can talk my ear off as much as you want! <3

Whew :wipes brow: I was worried about their scenes together, wondering if Nerdanel came off too black and white, but you put me at ease! And you are spot on when you pin-pointed her judgment as the barrier between them (on her side, Caranthir has his own issues with jumping to the worst conclusions possible when it comes to her). I understand where Caranthir is coming from too, wanting to protect his brothers from hearing this. He actually can handle it, hurtful as it is, but Curufin? Or even Maedhros, given what a terrible place he was in mentally last we saw him.  He doesn't need to hear that what he's done is unforgivable; even if it is to some people, that won't help on jot with healing.

Oh, you haven't made her b&w at all, at least not to me! And I totally understand Caranthir on this! He does have a point when he says that she hasn't lived any of it - the suffocating oath, the terrible price they all had to pay... And so her judgment comes as harsh as one can get. I can't imagine how a recently reborn Maedhros would react to her words, honestly. After having lived what he did, in absolute despair... I think he would turn full berserk on his poor, naïve mother lol.

Aww!  I'm glad you brought this up!  Nerdanel and Feanor's relationship really is at the heart of this.  We can see it in how Nerdanel and Caranthir seem to be hearing/seeing the other through a filter.  Nerdanel sees Feanor in Caranthir's temper/hasty judgments while Caranthir hears old arguments between Nerdanel and Feanor from his childhood every time she opens her mouth. Maybe she isn't the same woman she once was, but Caranthir was so quick to assume so that he wasn't really listening to who she is now. 

I totally understand both their sides and see how they are completely mistaken regarding one another. And, instead of properly talking, they just throw off acusations at one another! Neither of them is really trying. She is their mother, and she should know best. BUT, then again, she can't understand that level of suffering without having gone through it. I can't really blame Caranthir for being so pushy and trying to make his mother react differently - perhaps the way he has always dreamed she would (more like Fëanor? lol) - but I do blame Nerdanel for not being able to remedy this without bringing Fëanor up after aaaaaaaall those milleniums!!! I really hope she can show how much she's changed or else I'll murder her myself if she do our boys any harm! Hahaha!

I think the thing about Nerdanel's relationship with Feanor is that she genuinely loved him (still loves him).  But he didn't love her.  He told her so before they wed, he told her he loved another, but, in the thrall of young love, Nerdanel beleived he would come to love her in time.  But he never did.  Not romantically.  She was his friend and the mother of his children, but that was never enough when her feelings for him were so unmatched.  It bred resentment and insecurities in her, that then bred greater resentment for being the cause of those self-doubts, and it continued on in an ever-worsening cycle until all that was left was the feelings of inadequacy and bitterness.  

Their story really is heartbreaking (for her, at least) I feel sorry for her for having believed her own fantasies :/ but Fëanor did warn her, poor thing. I wonder what will she do when she finds out just who Fëanor was in love with when they married lol. 

It was not a healthy relationship for her, and she did need to leave for herself, but she is right that leaving as she did -in anger- was the wrong thing to do.  she may have needed that anger to finally walk away from a man she loved into despair but it was destructive for her children to see her walk away from them like that.  And, of course, we know enough of Feanor to know he wouldn't have welcomed her back into their lives, so trying to re-build relationships with her sons would have been difficult, but, Caranthir is right too that she didn't even make the effort.  Of course Caranthir is on Feanor's side, so while he loves his mother, he doesn't see clearly WHY she had to leave Feanor -leave them-- for her own self-preservation.

This is so accurate! It was a very toxic relationship and I agree that she needed just the right amount of anger and resentment to finally put an end to it and turn her back to the man she loved. But you're right again with the accusation that she didn't even try to go back to them, and those are traumas no child can erase. She should understand that. She should be less proud, and her love/hatred for Fëanor less blinding because it's harming her children, even if she can't see it now. I really hope she does, though, and finds a redeemable path rather than a (more) destructive one!

But, then again, I think that there are very few things that can be salvaged from this family. Fëanor and Nerdanel's differences were not only because she loved him and he didn't love her but also because he believed in things that she didn't - which would obviously make the children pick sides, and having Fëanor as a father, no surprise to whom they will always choose - and of course she also resents this, but she still hasn't learned how to deal with all these conflicting feelings! Where is the Elven shrink, everyone? These people needed it desperately! xD

Always lovely to hear from you! *hugs* 



Author's Response:
"I can't imagine how a recently reborn Maedhros would react to her words, honestly. After having lived what he did, in absolute despair... I think he would turn full berserk on his poor, naïve mother lol."

Given where he was at when he died...he might not have even recognized her; he'd lost so many pieces of himself.  But yeah, he definitely wouldn't have taken it well being told he was, essentially, and unforgivable monster with his deeds equated to what Morgoth had done to him in Angband.  I don't think he would have attacked her, more like, blanked her out.  His mind wouldn't have been able to process that wound on top of all the others.  He would have walked away without saying a word and the next time Nerdanel met him it would be like she was a ghost in the same room with him; he would have looked right through her as if she wasn't there and heard not a word she said.  My god, he can't get reborn alone, he just CAN"T!  (thank goodness I will not torture him like this!  It would have been too heartbreaking to stand!)

 

"She is their mother, and she should know best. BUT, then again, she can't understand that level of suffering without having gone through it. I can't really blame Caranthir for being so pushy and trying to make his mother react differently - perhaps the way he has always dreamed she would (more like Fëanor? lol)"

 

Good points! Caranthir does bitterly desire her to be what he thinks a true mother should be -someone who loves her sons like Feanor.  Instead, he's faced with a mother who is flawed and human and made mistakes but does love him but doesn't understand him or how he became the person he is today.  But he was in such a self-defensive place, geared for rejection, that he wasn't ready to try and reach her where she's at and hear her side of things.  Alternatively, Nerdanel has been stuck in the past, mummified in the moment of her grief, and hasn't moved on one jot.  I really think this Valinor was an excellent place to stay frozen in time forever and a terrible environment for growth....now I'm wondering if the Valar had something to do with that?  Some Vanyar and Noldor tried to move on and change, and the Valar didn't like that one bit.  Did they try to weave some kind of enchantment over the Elves to stop them from growing...and maybe that's why no Elves were born in all these years?  Hmm.  No.  I don't think I like that.  It gives the Valar too much insight into the Elves, while also taking away the Elves ability to change and some's inability to do that. The Elves' own nature -with their extensive living memories-- already set the ground work for a people who have a tendency to live in the past, never moving forward.  If Nerdanel and Eärwen and all the others want to move forward from the trauma they experienced during the Darkening/Kinslaying/Exiles leaving, then they are going to have to do the work.  It takes resiliency to work through trauma.  And a support system which seems to be seriously lacking for a lot of them.  

Well. they won't be alone in being stuck in the past.  It seems to me that the Noldor are dealing with a society wide trauma that spanned centuries; while the Teleri and Sindar have the trauma of the Kingslayings to work through.  You know what everyone needs?  Counseling! (you were totally right!) But they need counseling from an unbiased third-party and good luck finding them! lol  Ah, well, with that out, I suppose it will just have to be each other they lean on.  (This is making me seriously want to transport Gildor to Valinor!  He'd rock their world!)

 

"I wonder what will she do when she finds out just who Fëanor was in love with when they married lol."

 

hehehe I can't wait!  Once Feanor and Fingolfin work themselves out (when oh when, you two!) everyone will just have to deal with it lol

 

"But, then again, I think that there are very few things that can be salvaged from this family. Fëanor and Nerdanel's differences were not only because she loved him and he didn't love her but also because he believed in things that she didn't - which would obviously make the children pick sides, and having Fëanor as a father, no surprise to whom they will always choose"

 

Oh, yes, you are spot on!  Even if Feanor have loved her, there marriage still would have fallen apart when the tensions with the Valar got heated.  Differing beliefs can and does destroy relationships.  And they weren't even just religious beliefs but political too!  Think of how many relationships are doomed when one is a Trump supporter and the other knows him to be a horrible human being?  That's the same kind of thing here.  Feanor comes to view the Valar like Trump -they aren't to be trusted and have malicious intentions-- while Nerdanel's supports them, believing in their propaganda of benevolence.  And the children are stuck in the middle, but ultimately choose Feanor's side and believe their mother to be supporting their people's jailers.  Well, it's no surprise things got ugly towards the end and the breakup was messy and hurtful to both sides!  And I don't blame Caranthir at all for going into that argument fearing his mother was still as brainwashed as ever, but not being able to stop himself from pressing her and pressing her, needing to hear that she no longer worshiped the ones who had destroyed them, but when he didn't hear that, shutting down that conversation, putting up the walls of his heart against her because he couldn't bear to keep speaking about that, couldn't bear to hear her defend them and peddle their lies on her lips.  

Once the two of them are ready to talk for real, he will learn his mother no longer supports the Valar, and it will lift a huge weight in their relationship, but until they are able to have that conversation, the tension will be thick.




Name: merwinem (Signed) · Date: August 05, 2020 10:33 · For: Chapter 23
What a lovely update! You’ve made my day!

I love your description of Caranthir’s feelings about his childhood home, how it doesn’t feel quite right. The detail about Tree Light versus sunlight was great. His conflicting feelings about Nerdanel are spot on, too. I like that he doesn’t reject her outright, at least not yet.

The backstory about Raineth was interesting. I’m glad you are adding some more female characters. It’s interesting that Nerdanel thinks that her mother and Miriel didn’t consider their children worth fighting for. I don’t think Feanor ever said anything like that about Miriel, I didn’t get the feeling he blamed her. Also, the two situations are not the same at all – Raineth was only separated from Mahtan, while Miriel was dead and not coming back. By equating the two situations Nerdanel is making herself out to be a bigger victim than she was in reality. In general, I’m sensing a lot of self-pity from her – she sees herself as this put-upon little martyr. I think I’m going to get very annoyed with her soon.

On a more positive note, I love the relationship between Elmirion and Caranthir, and Celebrian’s interaction with Elured and Elurin. I wonder how many pairs of twins she will collect by the end of the story :)

Thank you so much for the chapter! I loved seeing more of Caranthir’s story.

Author's Response:
"I love your description of Caranthir’s feelings about his childhood home, how it doesn’t feel quite right. The detail about Tree Light versus sunlight was great. His conflicting feelings about Nerdanel are spot on, too. I like that he doesn’t reject her outright, at least not yet."

I'm so glad you enjoyed it :)  And especially glad Nerdanel and Caranthir's interactions rang true as I was a bit worried about them...to put it lightly, Caranthir's feelings for his mother are complex.  So, yeah, no outright rejections.  That said, he came into those conversations with a pre-set image of who Nerdanel was, and was ready to be convinced she neither loved them nor had changed from her Valar worship.  It was a defense mechanism, I'd say.  He didn't want to get his hoped up just to be crushed, and so he didn't have his ears open for what she might have been trying to tell him.  That's not to say he was wrong about her feelings for the most part, but he wasn't ready to hear if she had changed in subtle ways.  Nerdanel was just the same tho.  Both of them were talking over each other and jumping to conclusions.  We will see if anything changes between them in the future.

"The backstory about Raineth was interesting. I’m glad you are adding some more female characters."

I'm glad you liked her :D  And yay for more ladies!  I feel like there were so many characters to get a handle on when I first started writing, it was all I could do to work with the named characters.  Which are mostly men.  But there has been an uptick in female characters in Heralds.  Hopefully there will be room for them all once the other main characters start returning!  I feel that way about plenty of the main characters already.  

"It’s interesting that Nerdanel thinks that her mother and Miriel didn’t consider their children worth fighting for. I don’t think Feanor ever said anything like that about Miriel, I didn’t get the feeling he blamed her."

Aw, yes, Feanor never blamed Miriel.  Deep down he blamed himself, and consciously he blamed the Valar.  For Nerdanel tho, the loss of their mothers was something that brought her closer to Feanor, and laid the foundations of their relationship.  Very few Elves born in Valinor could come close to understanding what it felt like to loose a mother, and Feanor was able to confide in Nerdanel and feel understood and validated where so many others were telling him to move on.  Finding this similar experience in Nerdanel, as well as the other things they had in common like passion for their crafts, drew him towards her despite their dissimilarities in other things like faith in the Valar.  Of course things changed when Raineth showed up in Nerdanel's life again and she wasn't as eager to embrace her as Feanor would have been if it had been Miriel returned to him.  Nerdanel was afraid of being rejected, or her mother walking away from her again, but didn't communicate that well so all Feanor saw was Nerdanel's coldness.  He welcomed Raineth into their family, finding a similarities with her that were lacking in Nerdanel, but Nerdanel took Feanor's growing closeness with her mother (piled atop the insecurities Feanor's inability to love her romantically had festered in her) and things got ugly.  
I should find a way to write this all into the story!  It would have fit better in Revolutionary and the Usurper, but I didn't know about Raineth then, damn it.  And Caranthir's POV couldn't tell us the whole story because he didn't know.  Maybe I should do a Nerdanel's POV....we shall see!  

" and Celebrian’s interaction with Elured and Elurin. I wonder how many pairs of twins she will collect by the end of the story :)"

haha I like that :)  Celebrain is the type of person who would adopt all the strays she comes across.  If Caranthir isn't careful he might get adopted too lol

Thank you so, so much for the invigorating review!  And for the chance to share all my Feanor/Nerdanel/Raineth thoughts :)



Name: mangacrack (Signed) · Date: August 04, 2020 21:13 · For: Chapter 23

It's so nice to see you back and I frigging ADORE the chapter. Caranthir deserves more attention and while he might not think so, he DESERVES to be the one who first confronts Nerdanel with ... well everything. His siblings have other issues and Caranthir can focus all his angry, disappointed little self on his mother.

Personally, i think he is spot and YES TO FEANOR WHO WOULD LOVE HIS TINY ORC CHILDREN TO DEATH. Seriously, he would either become the bestest Orc himself or nurse them back to proper Elves. He is a good dad like that.

And I can't blame Caranthir for blaming Nerdanel. Or feeling disappointed. At some point, you have to pick a side and she clearly hasn't realized (STILL?) that she can't have both. The Valar OR her children.

Also, great love for the story behind Nerdanel's mother. It makes sense that the rift started long before and that it goes deep. I hope Caranthir gets to see his grandmother again. (And his siblings, god, even after such a long time they have this closeness, this sense and understand for each other IT HURTS!)

 

Thank you for the update, I hope you are well.



Author's Response:
"It's so nice to see you back and I frigging ADORE the chapter."

:cheers:  Ahhh!  This makes my feet dance :)

" Caranthir deserves more attention and while he might not think so, he DESERVES to be the one who first confronts Nerdanel with ... well everything. His siblings have other issues and Caranthir can focus all his angry, disappointed little self on his mother."


Yes, this exactly!  He doesn't see it, but Caranthir really is the right brother for this task.  Not only to face Nerdnael's judgement, but to be left (as far as he knows) as the only brother alive.  He has the fortitude to endure, however much it hurts, he can push through it.  (It helps so much tho that he isn't completely alone.  He may not have his brothers with him but he has Elmririon and the twins).

"Personally, i think he is spot and YES TO FEANOR WHO WOULD LOVE HIS TINY ORC CHILDREN TO DEATH. Seriously, he would either become the bestest Orc himself or nurse them back to proper Elves. He is a good dad like that."

hehehehe I love this image!  I would totally read a story where Feanor was dad to tiny orc children! And if anyone could bring an Elf back from Orc-ness it would be Feanor!  With the power of LOVE hehehehe

"Also, great love for the story behind Nerdanel's mother. It makes sense that the rift started long before and that it goes deep. I hope Caranthir gets to see his grandmother again. (And his siblings, god, even after such a long time they have this closeness, this sense and understand for each other IT HURTS!)"

I'm glad you like the boys' grandmother :)  I hadn't foreseen her before writing this chapter, but then she popped up and yes like 'did you think messed up families was only on the Finwe side? Nah."  I seem to be incapable of writing a happy family lol but, to be fair, there aren't any perfect families, only ones that look like that from the outside.

Thank you for reading and reviewing even after so long, my dear friend :hugs:  I hope this finds you too doing well!!!



Name: Spiced Wine (Signed) · Date: August 04, 2020 21:03 · For: Chapter 23

I'm so THRILLED you've updated o/

You have made me care for Caranthir so much; he's so much more than he thinks he is, -- he thinks any one of his brothers would do better in his position, but I don't think that's true (although I do want him to meet Maglor, for Maglor to come) but he is iron and steel; he will simply not give up; the same will that kept him houseless in Middle-earth will see him through. 

 

I hope Celebrían will embrace the twins; they need Caranthir but they need a mother figure, too.

 

Which Nerdanel isn't; a lot of it is because she remained in Valinor, it seems those who did are completely entranced in their world-view still, and she never had to bear the weight of the Oath.

 

Caranthir's memories-- I am sobbing -- and his words about Fëanor, who would have loved them whatever they were or became, and loves them still. I can't speak, it's just too emotional. Thank you so much! 



Author's Response:
You have made me care for Caranthir so much; he's so much more than he thinks he is, -- he thinks any one of his brothers would do better in his position, but I don't think that's true (although I do want him to meet Maglor, for Maglor to come) but he is iron and steel; he will simply not give up; the same will that kept him houseless in Middle-earth will see him through."

Yes, yes!  This exactly!  You are absolutely right that he's is in truth the one most suited to the task ahead.  He is indeed iron and steel.  He can endure, even this long separation from his family, he can face it (tho I too wish Maglor was there with him!).  I don't think any of his brothers could have handled being the only one left alive (as far as he knows) if they had been thrown in there from the mental place they were in when they died.  Maedhros, Celegorm, Curufin, and Maglor too when he was all that was left, and one of the twins without the other...it would have been a struggle just to stay sane.  And the Feanorions have their own strengths, and mental fortitude is Caranthir's.

"Which Nerdanel isn't; a lot of it is because she remained in Valinor, it seems those who did are completely entranced in their world-view still, and she never had to bear the weight of the Oath."

Yeah, in many ways she is still stuck in the same place she was thousands of years ago...like she was mummified in her grief.  But she isn't exactly the same person she was.  Caranthir assumes she is, and so hears her with that mindset, but she doesn't have the same view of the Valar she once did.  She may not hate them, but she no longer thinks they are worthy of either worship or trust.  Her faith has adapted overtime.  Now she views the Valar as beings who meant well, but, because this is Arda Mared, have fallen short of their ideals and in so doing caused much greif.  She joins the war effort with reluctance, but with the belief that the Valar's wrongs need to be righted and the Valar will never do so themselves.  It's a long way from the other rebels beliefs, but also a long way from the Elves sitting at the Valar's feet.  But I think you reach the core of about her never leaving Valinor.  She knows, abstractly, of the horrors of Middle-earth, they come to her in tales and rumors, but she has yet to spend a great deal of time with even the reborn, much less set foot outside the Valar's dominion.  But she will have to witness more of the consequences of the Valar's inaction and Curse than ever before now, and we will see if it might change her.

"Caranthir's memories-- I am sobbing -- and his words about Fëanor, who would have loved them whatever they were or became, and loves them still. I can't speak, it's just too emotional. Thank you so much!"

Ah!  I'm so pleased to hear how much it moved you!  Those sweet, sweet memories of childhood, but woven in with the longing and loss.  Ach!  It's hurts just thinking about it!
I'm glad to hear you enjoyed the chapter :)  I hope it helped take your mind off things just a little bit :hugs:


Name: FirstAmazon (Signed) · Date: August 04, 2020 20:19 · For: Chapter 23

GASP!!!!!! OMG A NEW CHAPTER! You probably heard my sqweak from where you are! I stopped everything I was doing to read this because ooooh how much I've missed it!! It is so good to see that you have picked the story again and made me cry all the way through LOL!

Seriously, though, this chapter was incredible! Beautiful as usual, and so emotional! First, seeing how connected Caranthir is with the twins makes my heart swell! He feels like they're more part of his family than his own family - and all the memories from their childhood, punctuated with lost innocence and longing, made it so poignant!

This, particularly, made my eyes tear up: 

Possessions did not bring the lost back, but they brought them closer. Or at least the illusion of closeness. With the immensity of the task he'd set himself spread out before him, he needed the strength of his brothers' by his side. They were his fuel in weariness, his dawn in darkness, his compass in the vast desert of an ocean.

Ugh, so beautiful, and so true!!

And then the whole ordeal between Caranthir and Nerdanel... isn't it crazy how much time can pass yet somethings will never change? Of course they would clash, at some point they would have to! What a terrible, hurtful argument! You absolutely nailed their reactions and how both of them should be feeling at this moment.

Caranthir obviously loves his mother, but as much as she expected him to be a "better man despite his anger", he also expects her to be a better mother despite her judgement - which makes that last paragraph so unbearably truthful. If Nerdanel can't deal with her sons' past, I completely understand Caranthir's instinct to protect them from yet another evil thing - condmening words for loving their father.

I mean, is Nerdanel's resentment against Fëanor so great that she cannot see past him to her sons? Apparently, it is. In her mind, I don't doubt that she only sees him in fault for driving her away, and not that she was in fault at some point - not understanding him the way he expected. But then... Fëanor's standards were impossible to reach. What a situation, and you've woven it as brilliantly as ever!



Author's Response:
"GASP!!!!!! OMG A NEW CHAPTER! You probably heard my sqweak from where you are! I stopped everything I was doing to read this because ooooh how much I've missed it!! It is so good to see that you have picked the story again and made me cry all the way through LOL!"

Oh WOW!  It's wonderful to hear this :)

"And then the whole ordeal between Caranthir and Nerdanel... isn't it crazy how much time can pass yet somethings will never change? Of course they would clash, at some point they would have to! What a terrible, hurtful argument! You absolutely nailed their reactions and how both of them should be feeling at this moment."

Whew :wipes brow:  I was worried about their scenes together, wondering if Nerdanel came off too black and white, but you put me at ease!  And you are spot on when you pin-pointed her judgment as the barrier between them (on her side, Caranthir has his own issues with jumping to the worst conclusions possible when it comes to her).  I understand where Caranthir is coming from too, wanting to protect his brothers from hearing this.  He actually can handle it, hurtful as it is, but Curufin? Or even Maedhros, given what a terrible place he was in mentally last we saw him.  He doesn't need to hear that what he's done is unforgivable; even if it is to some people, that won't help on jot with healing.

"I mean, is Nerdanel's resentment against Fëanor so great that she cannot see past him to her sons? Apparently, it is.   In her mind, I don't doubt that she only sees him in fault for driving her away, and not that she was in fault at some point - not understanding him the way he expected. But then... Fëanor's standardswere impossible to reach."

Aww!  I'm glad you brought this up!  Nerdanel and Feanor's relationship really is at the heart of this.  We can see it in how Nerdanel and Caranthir seem to be hearing/seeing the other through a filter.  Nerdanel sees Feanor in Caranthir's temper/hasty judgments while Caranthir hears old arguments between Nerdanel and Feanor from his childhood every time she opens her mouth.  Maybe she isn't the same woman she once was, but Caranthir was so quick to assume so that he wasn't really listening to who she is now.  

I think the thing about Nerdanel's relationship with Feanor is that she genuinely loved him (still loves him).  But he didn't love her.  He told her so before they wed, he told her he loved another, but, in the thrall of young love, Nerdanel beleived he would come to love her in time.  But he never did.  Not romantically.  She was his friend and the mother of his children, but that was never enough when her feelings for him were so unmatched.  It bred resentment and insecurities in her, that then bred greater resentment for being the cause of those self-doubts, and it continued on in an ever-worsening cycle until all that was left was the feelings of inadequacy and bitterness.  It was not a healthy relationship for her, and she did need to leave for herself, but she is right that leaving as she did -in anger- was the wrong thing to do.  she may have needed that anger to finally walk away from a man she loved into despair but it was destructive for her children to see her walk away from them like that.  And, of course, we know enough of Feanor to know he wouldn't have welcomed her back into their lives, so trying to re-build relationships with her sons would have been difficult, but, Caranthir is right too that she didn't even make the effort.  Of course Caranthir is on Feanor's side, so while he loves his mother, he doesn't see clearly WHY she had to leave Feanor -leave them-- for her own self-preservation.

Ah!  These discussions!  I've missed them!  Thank you so much for giving me the chance to talk your ear off lol


Name: Spiced Wine (Signed) · Date: June 23, 2020 9:22 · For: Chapter 22

Everything about him from his Power to his awareness of the world/people around him has faded to the point where Eönwë has flown right under his nose for millennium.  We will see if the game changes when Varda reverses the fading process…things might get very dangerous for our dear rebels!

AHHHH! Oh, yes, that makes perfect sense of course, with the Valar's fading, but now I am terrified as to what will happen if Manwë returns to his power. Oh no :( 

 

But I'm with you in that the characters who have yet to meet are far more fascinating to me, and there's a lot who have not been reborn, (cries) and Fëanor still battling from the Halls of Mandos. 





Author's Response:

 “but now I am terrified as to what will happen if Manwë returns to his power. Oh no :(“

It could go VERY badly.  Especially now when the Elves are at far from their top strength…but then again it might backfire in Varda’s face.  We shall see!

“But I'm with you in that the characters who have yet to meet are far more fascinating to me, and there's a lot who have not been reborn, (cries) and Fëanor still battling from the Halls of Mandos.”

Oh, yes, I know what you mean!  It feels like it’s taking forever to get to the good stuff!  But on the other hand, once Feanor and co are out, there will be drama around every corner lol  I can’t wait!



Name: Spiced Wine (Signed) · Date: May 18, 2020 20:32 · For: Chapter 16

I always enjoy -- but it's not as simple as 'enjoy', I rage and scream and mourn and get a lump in my throat. Do you know how many orig-fic books do that to me? Not so many! 

 

Like this chapter, which was really when I began to feel sorry for Turgon, who I absolutely loathe, both for his acts (or non-acts) in Gondolin, and his attack on Finarfin, and yet, yes, I do feel sorry for him, knowing his issues. 

 

But Maeglin has always been one of my favourite characters in your series, and I can't condone what was done to him, (or his father) by the people of Gondolin and Turgon's spell over him. I always think is he and Glorfindel had just become closer (as they were going to) so much might have been different. 

 

Eonwe really plays a dangerous game.  And he's been doing it for so long!  He's like a spy that's been on duty pretty much 24-7 for thousands of years!  It's amazing he's coping as well as he is!  But he needs good things in his life, ASAP!  Will he get them tho???  To be seen!

 Is it that Manwë trusts him so much that he does not bother to scrutinise him? 

Ahh, I want to post the next chapter bad now!  But it's not done, and no writing has gotten done for.........I will get there!  I will never give up on this story!  It's taken me over a decade to write, so damn it, I'm going to finish it!

You will get there. It took me 14 years to finish Dark Prince/Magnificat and I couldn't believe it when I'd finished, and if I'd known how long it would become I would have been too terrified to start lol! 

Not that I want to see an end, but I want to see the comeuppance for the Valar and there are so many I want to see return *sobs*. 

 

 



Author's Response:

I always enjoy -- but it's not as simple as 'enjoy', I rage and scream and mourn and get a lump in my throat. Do you know how many orig-fic books do that to me? Not so many!”

 

Oh yes, I know what you mean!  I have dropped so many orig books (and fic too) because of that lack of emotional tie.  It doesn’t matter how good the world building or plot might be, I have to feel SOMETHING for the characters!

“Like this chapter, which was really when I began to feel sorry for Turgon, who I absolutely loathe, both for his acts (or non-acts) in Gondolin, and his attack on Finarfin, and yet, yes, I do feel sorry for him, knowing his issues.

 

Yeah, I get you.  He is a character I too can feel pity for, but some of the things he did/didn’t do were just so horrible that he can’t just be forgiven because he was suffering too.  Also, the way he refuses to take responsibility for what he’s done, makes it impossible to forgive him because he’s not even asking for forgiveness!  He still thinks he’s the one who was most wronged!

 

“But Maeglin has always been one of my favourite characters in your series, and I can't condone what was done to him, (or his father) by the people of Gondolin and Turgon's spell over him. I always think is he and Glorfindel had just become closer (as they were going to) so much might have been different.”

 

Ah, my darling Maeglin!  I love that he’s one of your favs :grins: he is for me too.  And you are 100% right that if only he and Glorfindel could have been close so much would have been different!  For both of them!  It’s painful to think about how much pain they were both struggling tho on two parallel lines, running so close to each other but not crossing until it was too late.

 

“Is it that Manwë trusts him so much that he does not bother to scrutinise him?”

 

I’m planning a Manwe POV in a coming chapter and we’ll get a look at what’s going on with him.  Pretty much it boils down to Manwe’s slow fading.  Everything about him from his Power to his awareness of the world/people around him has faded to the point where Eönwë has flown right under his nose for millennium.  We will see if the game changes when Varda reverses the fading process…things might get very dangerous for our dear rebels!

 

Not that I want to see an end, but I want to see the comeuppance for the Valar and there are so many I want to see return *sobs*. “

 

Yes, I feel you!  So many times the only way I got through writing a character’s death was the knowledge that this was not the end for them!  And there are still so many things for the characters to work out!  As much as I want to see the Valar finally getting their due, I’m way more excited/anticipatory for character met ups :)  I have spent so much time thinking about the coming meetings between Caranthir, Curufin, Finrod, Gildor….and of course there is the dynamic of Maedhros, Fingon, Maglor and Glorfindel…and of course the burning desire to see Feanor and Fingolfin meet again at last! 

 

Now I’m all giddy with excitement and wishing this was a story I could read RIGHT NOW lol!  Ah, I suppose I shall just have to write it! 



Name: Spiced Wine (Signed) · Date: May 16, 2020 18:08 · For: Chapter 4

Re-reading this again, and it's the mark of an exceptional story that it never ever greets familiar; I find new and deeper things all the time. 

 

I've said this before, but I hope Ecthelion's murder is uncovered and he does get a chance to ask for Glorfindel's forgiveness. He does need to, even though he became a different man in his short, second life. 

 

I'm always astonished at how much of a knife-edge Eönwë walks on, and how lonely he is. 



Author's Response:

I'm excited to hear you are still enjoying it, Spiced!!

 

I hope the same for Ecthelion.  Even tho he wasn't a very good person in his first life, he was truly remorseful and had really changed.  He's going to be reborn sometime...maybe not until the Elves do a major hit on the Halls tho, but he'll get his chance!

 

Eonwe really plays a dangerous game.  And he's been doing it for so long!  He's like a spy that's been on duty pretty much 24-7 for thousands of years!  It's amazing he's coping as well as he is!  But he needs good things in his life, ASAP!  Will he get them tho???  To be seen!

 

Ahh, I want to post the next chapter bad now!  But it's not done, and no writing has gotten done for.........I will get there!  I will never give up on this story!  It's taken me over a decade to write, so damn it, I'm going to finish it!



Name: FirstAmazon (Signed) · Date: March 17, 2020 23:58 · For: Chapter 21

He would have gone down a similar path of blaming his father/Fingon/the Feanorions for Idril's death, which would have led him to cling to those he had left.  Maybe he wouldn't have destroyed his friendship with Finrod, but that wouldn't be strong enough to really ground him, and Aredhel wouldn't have responded any better to being clung to.  So yeah, you are probably right that their relationship would crumble.  I think now that Turgon just isn't a person who handles greif in a healthy way at all.  He lashes out and shuts out. Even if it had been Fingolfin or Fingon who had died, he would have looked to someone to blame, and pulled ever closer to those he had left, shutting out the rest of the world.

Yeah, that's how I see it. He would always blame someone else, because even if we're not talking about deaths - like he is blaming Finarfin for stealing Elenwë reborn! - he still reacts poorly, looking for someone else to blame rather than himself. And on the latter, that was not anyone's fault except distance and time! So your Turgon is really one of the people who needed therapy the most LOL

 

Oh yes, let's make this that kind of AU :grins:  God knows we can't handle anymore Feanor-dying plots! (I want so bad for your lovely Feanor and Fingolfin to give canon the middle-finger and live happily-ever-after!!!!)

Hahahaha well, you never know... my story is AU, so anything can happen, really - even though I already know how it will play out, many things can change along the way! :P



Author's Response:

"Hahahaha well, you never know... my story is AU, so anything can happen, really - even though I already know how it will play out, many things can change along the way! :P"

 

:happy scream:  Oh, yes, yes!!!  Give me AU Feanor and Fingolfin, baby!  This gives me hope my heart will not be crushed :)



Name: FirstAmazon (Signed) · Date: March 06, 2020 17:54 · For: Chapter 21

While I don't think Gondolin would have ever existed if Elwene died (she would have encouraged Turgon to stay with his family, and his relationship with Fingolfin and Fingon wouldn't have utterly deteriorated).

Oh yes, THIS. I totally believe it.

If Turgon had still built Gondolin and the same dynamic of people inhabited it again, would Elwene have been influenced by the environment as Turgon was? Lured into convincing herself that Turgon's argument of the 'greater good' was the right one?  I like to think she wouldn't be. Idril, for the most part, knew what was happening was wrong, even Turgon knew it was wrong, and I think, with Elwene's council in his ear, wouldn't have been the one influencing HER into accepting this distorted reality, but HIM the one influenced by her steadier moral compass.

That's a really interesting question that only yourself can answer LOL but I think that, rather than be influenced by Gondolin, Elenwë wouldn't have let things go as far as they did. She would have a greater influence over Glorfindel and Maeglin, and who knows how they would have become. Perhaps Glorfindel would be less broken, perhaps he and Maeglin would have developed a stable friendship (or even something else!).

I wonder tho what might have happened with Turgon and Elwene if it was Idril who died....?  If it was the two of them left to live through that kind of grief, and guilt too, maybe even one, or both of them, blaming the other for Idril's death?  Or maybe they would have found comfort in each other and their marriage would have been a bond that reforged itself into titanium.

Again, it's really hard to imagine, since they are your characters hahaha. But I think two clearer things could happen: Elenwë would have forgotten about everything else (her love for Turgon, which in the end would wither and other children, and become this cold, detached character) or she could be even more fierce on her determination to save those she could, perhaps becoming bolder and a warrior even then. I don't know how you feel about this, but I don't see her relationship with Turgon lasting on the long run. 

Like, Fingolfin and other's in Turgon's family would have helped her, but would she have asked?  How could she be sure they would help her and not take Turgon's side and try to convince her to stay?  She had left her family and people behind to follow Turgon, and he had his own group of supporters on top of that who they were living with....how easily it would have seemed like what she was feeling was all in her head!  Surrounded by Turgon's supporters, she would have been more isolated than ever.  (now I'm really glad that it didn't go this way in the story!  Thankfully Elwene was in a place where she had allies and resources when she broke from Turgon).

I think Fingolfin would be too wrapped up in his own grief to worry about her, but I'm certain that, in this AU we're talking about (hahahaha), he would have found Fëanor before his fight with the balrog, and perhaps everything would have been different... but I digress. But yes, it's true that in Gondolin and surrounded by Turgon's cage (inside and out), she would be miserable and helpess to those who depended on her :( thanks indeed you didn't go that way!

Oh, yeah, that's it completely!  And the worst is he still hasn't gotten to a place where he sees where he went wrong with her!  He's still in denial and blaming Finarfin :(

I wonder what will be the turning point for him - because if it wasn't her leaving nor Maeglin coming, what in the hells will open his eyes? I hope it's Fingolfin. There relation also deserves redemption...

LOL I'm totally with you there!  And it came back to bite him in the ass. His inability to hold off on selling the rights (or at least hiring half-way decent writers!) until he'd at least finished Winds turned SO many people sour on his work!  Now, I wonder how many people are actually going to read it when it comes out and how many people are just over it, you know?  Tho, I will say one thing: all the new fans have brought a critical light to a lot of things about the books that were brushed under the rung.  He has had years now to educate himself and hear what his fans are saying about his treatment of people of color in his works, as well as women, and do better....if he will or not is the question, and I only have the smallest hope that he will LISTEN.  If he turns Dorne into a 'lesson on why vengeance is bAd' I'm going to what to kill something. I should have pre-faced this little rant with: I have STRONG opinions about ASOIAF!!!! (like, seriously, you don't want to get me ranting on the racism treatment of Elia Martell and her kids, because I will keep shouting even if it's into the Void lol)

Well, I will read it because, as you might be aware now, I need freaking closure. And I agree with you, it's time he atones for his horrible view on some characters (although in some part of my brain I praise them for their complexity). And we have a saying in my country that is "let's go to the next bar and discuss it over beer", so if you want to rant, feel free, you have my email hahaha. By now you've realized how much I like talking about this subject and could keep going indefinetely.

I have killed it enough in R & U I think even I have had my fill LOL but, seriously, I won't say everything is going to go smoothly, but I don't think I could bare to write another R & U any more than you could read it; it's about time we saw a little happiness for these two!

Oh god, you're actually giving me hope! I'll stick to that, instead of the angst! Thank you for the prospect lol <3



Author's Response:
"But I think two clearer things could happen: Elenwë would have forgotten about everything else (her love for Turgon, which in the end would wither and other children, and become this cold, detached character) or she could be even more fierce on her determination to save those she could, perhaps becoming bolder and a warrior even then. I don't know how you feel about this, but I don't see her relationship with Turgon lasting on the long run."

Hmm, yes, I think you have her measure on how she would respond: either shutting out or becoming a fiercer protector.  As for her relationship with Turgon...I think it would all depend on his own reaction.  If he became overly possessive of her in response to loosing Idril, then yes, she wouldn't have been able to endure that feeling of suffocation long....and really, I'm sitting here trying to think of a but for him, another response, but I don't see one.  He would have gone down a similar path of blaming his father/Fingon/the Feanorions for Idril's death, which would have led him to cling to those he had left.  Maybe he wouldn't have destroyed his friendship with Finrod, but that wouldn't be strong enough to really ground him, and Aredhel wouldn't have responded any better to being clung to.  So yeah, you are probably right that their relationship would crumble.  I think now that Turgon just isn't a person who handles greif in a healthy way at all.  He lashes out and shuts out.  Even if it had been Fingolfin or Fingon who had died, he would have looked to someone to blame, and pulled ever closer to those he had left, shutting out the rest of the world.

"I think Fingolfin would be too wrapped up in his own grief to worry about her, but I'm certain that, in this AU we're talking about (hahahaha), he would have found Fëanor before his fight with the balrog, and perhaps everything would have been different..."

Oh yes, let's make this that kind of AU :grins:  God knows we can't handle anymore Feanor-dying plots! (I want so bad for your lovely Feanor and Fingolfin to give canon the middle-finger and live happily-ever-after!!!!)

"Well, I will read it because, as you might be aware now, I need freaking closure."

Ah, to true.  It's only in my dreams that I'm able to resist lol

"And I agree with you, it's time he atones for his horrible view on some characters (although in some part of my brain I praise them for their complexity)."

Oh, I've no problem with complexity!  He DOES have character building as a strength in his writing, it's when there is no complexity and they become caricatures (like most of the POC in Danny's arc) that it becomes a problem.

" By now you've realized how much I like talking about this subject and could keep going indefinetely."

Yeah, me too :)  What I really need to do tho is write all these frustrations into a story!  But I won't let myself until I've finished Heralds (even if that takes me years!), but writing it all out it so much better than ranting.  But I'm here too if you want to let it out :)  And if you ever write anything in that fandom, I want to read it!

"Oh god, you're actually giving me hope! I'll stick to that, instead of the angst! Thank you for the prospect lol <3"
Yes, it's time we got some happiness for once!


Name: Spiced Wine (Signed) · Date: March 06, 2020 9:37 · For: Chapter 22

Oh, no, lol, I know that the majority of the Noldor aren't exactly those anyone would choose to have at their side in a tight corner, still it's better than it was with some of those who've returned/been reborn. 

 

Now all they have to do is find a way to break the souls free of Mandos, knowing those souls can rebuild themselves, but those souls will be traumatised :(  and for that they'd need the Silmarils, but I imagine Eärendil would certainly help them, and he has the one. 



Author's Response:
"Oh, no, lol, I know that the majority of the Noldor aren't exactly those anyone would choose to have at their side in a tight corner, still it's better than it was with some of those who've returned/been reborn."
True.  And it will keep getting better as more and more of the Reborn regain their memories.  Maeglin's got his work cut out for him!

"Now all they have to do is find a way to break the souls free of Mandos, knowing those souls can rebuild themselves, but those souls will be traumatised :(  and for that they'd need the Silmarils, but I imagine Eärendil would certainly help them, and he has the one."

Oh, for sure!  Eariendil will hand it over without a fight, even if it is his only comfort (he needs to get free!), and you are right, now they only need to find a way into Mandos....and Celebrimbor figured most of that out already, didn't he?  The Rings were MADE for this.  So once the major players get here, things can really get cracking!  


Name: FirstAmazon (Signed) · Date: March 05, 2020 15:51 · For: Chapter 22

Good reminder :) And if it was Curufin....but Caranthir might be more of the same -seeing another Feanorion in Curufin's place...or maybe he's learned his lesson?  But Caranthir certainly has things to work through on his side when he sees Finrod!  Finrod was the one who Curufin turned to and then who hurt Curufin, and oh boy does Caranthir not get over someone hurting Curufin!  Finrod may not have given Caranthir much thought, but Caranthir has despised (envied) him since Valinor when he saw how well Finrod and Curufin got on.

Oh yeah, there's that... Caranthir will certainly resent their relation, and what he'll see (and as I see) as Finrod's betrayal of Curufin. On the one hand, I think how Aegnor will react to this. He had such a great friendship with Caranthir, and I can't help imagine he will try to build a bridge between the cousins, especially because he has such a fiery temperament like the Fëanorions... and perhaps Finrod will be forced to confront his own prejudices and fears. Like, for real lol.

BUT on the other, there is the surprise element of the twins, especially Eluréd's unpredictability - I'm quite convinced he will try to protect Caranthir with his own life if he has to. Oh boy can't I see amazing things coming out of all this?! lol



Author's Response:
""BUT on the other, there is the surprise element of the twins, especially Eluréd's unpredictability - I'm quite convinced he will try to protect Caranthir with his own life if he has to. Oh boy can't I see amazing things coming out of all this?! lol"
I'm glad you're so excited!  Me too!  I am not even sure yet how everything will go down, so it's still in the discovery stage :)  Elured will be an unknown element indeed!  He's not only protective but also highly suspicious of strange Noldo (like Finrod!), so we will see how that goes down!  Aegnor will be another interesting element, you're right.  On the one hand, of course he'll have Finrod's back, but on the other, if it seems like Finrod is being an ass, he's not afraid to call that out.  Another thing is that we haven't seen him since he regained his memories...will he be changed?  How will he react to Caranthir after learning about Doriath?  Does he consider Dior kin or is he resentful like the Feanorions that the Sindar sat out the war?  Or will he be able to consider it clearly at all with the shadow of Alquendi hanging over it?  We shall see :)


Name: FirstAmazon (Signed) · Date: March 05, 2020 13:09 · For: Chapter 21

Ah, now this is an interesting question!  On the one hand, she was already a kind person before she died...BUT many people who ended up committing atrocities in Beleriand wouldn't have been considered bad people in Valinor.  If Turgon hadn't ended up building Gondolin even with Elwene still alive, and things turned sour between the Noldor and Wood-elves again, how strongly would he have responded?  How much would he have allowed to 'slide,' and would Elenwe have stuck by his side even if she knew he wasn't living up to the man he should be?  I can see her sticking by Turgon long after she should have left him.  She would have kept thinking he'd change back or keep seeing the good in him.  She wouldn't want to break her family and make Idril choose between them.  She also wasn't a very assertive person before, and there's something about her relationship with Turgon, how depended she was on him because of her isolated lifestyle that makes me think she unfortunately would have stayed with Turgon no matter how bad it became.


I strongly believe that the cultural environment you live in ends up influencing you whether you want it or not - or whether you try pretending nothing is happening, like Turgon in Gondolin with the woodelves. And I can totally see Elenewë beside him if they had stayed in Valinor, because Gondolin is a character in itself... it changed people. Also, Elenwë only defied everything exactly because of Turgon's actions in Gondolin and post-rebirth. Because of Amarië. Before that, she was raised to be dominated by a man.


I don't see Turgon as ever turning physically or verbally abusive towards her, but he's very possessive and emotionally dependent on her that I can see their relationship turning unhealthy.


And following the thought above, yes, mental abuse is as bad as verbal, if not worse. Ultimately, a possessive, emotionally dependent person will make the dominated feel guilty about everything, will try to cage the other... in the end, I think Elenwë would have stayed for the reasons you have given, but also because she wouldn't have enough strenght or reasons herself to walk away... 


Kind of like he idolized their love?  That all other loves became nothing when compared to it?  He seemed to have forgotten any flaw Elwene had ever had; she had become something like a goddess in his mind/heart that that he worshiped and that no other could ever compare to.


Yes, and that certainly is what corrupted it. I mean, she was flawed, but then she died and he put her in such an unattainable place, like this was what love should feel like - idolized (and sick lol). He put her in such a pedestal that she was not even a person anymore, capable of feeling for herself, because she was this perfect thing that "lived for him". And then, nothing could compare to this love, of course, because it was an illusion - therefore his heartbreak when he couldn't even understand how and why she left him... Gosh, that's dense hahaha.


Ho, now!  You are going to give me a fat head lol  but on the other hand, is there a hint in there about how slow my updates are that you'd compare me to GRRM? hahaha


Yes and no. Yes because my anxious, obssessed self would have a chapter a week (and because if it gives you a fat head, well, it's well deserved!). And no because I want to rip his arm off and hit him with it for writing shitty tv series instead of finishing his goddamm books - I wouldn't do that to you, in case you wonder hahahaha


THANK YOU for reminding me!!!  I forgot Feanor actually told Caranthir who he loved!  But of course he would have because Caranthir was struggling with loving his brother!  I don't think Fingolfin named who he loved to Fingon....but I will have to double check that.  And while Maglor knew he desired Feanor, Maglor didn't suspect that he was IN LOVE with Feanor (at that time, with all the strife between their families, it wouldn't have seemed likely to Maglor.  Lust was one thing, but if Fingolfin loved Feanor why would he have let things get that bad? Maglor would have thought).  And oh yes when Feanor finds out about Maglor/Fingolfin :))))))


Hahahaha what have I told you? I'm here for it. It was also one of my favorite parts of R&U, because I always loved reading the soft spot Fëanor still had for Fingolfin, despite his contempt. And of course Maglor wouldn't have thought about love, it made no sense that love could be this messed up (but now I think he knows better lol). About the finding out, a plea: please, don't kill my heart.


You're braver than me to read in public :)  I can't even answer reviewers in public without getting self-conscious cause I've always got this silly grin on my face and will start laughing randomly lol (yeah, I'm totally not in public right now; it have been smiley through this reply so it's a good thing I'm not :snorts:))


I read a lot while in the bus, so you can imagine how freaking difficult it is to not make a scene hahahaha. And yes, I am that kind of person who will burst with laughter while reading in public. I can't help it, it's in my blood lol But I just can't help it, it's too much to ask of my anxiety to NOT read it when I see it xD 



Author's Response:
"I strongly believe that the cultural environment you live in ends up influencing you whether you want it or not - or whether you try pretending nothing is happening, like Turgon in Gondolin with the woodelves. And I can totally see Elenewë beside him if they had stayed in Valinor, because Gondolin is a character in itself... it changed people. Also, Elenwë only defied everything exactly because of Turgon's actions in Gondolin and post-rebirth."

Gondolin is a character in itself...Very true!  And I agree that the environment someone lives in can absolutely influence them!  We wouldn't have the problem we do with racism if our society wasn't based on it :(  And there were no doubt plenty of people in Gondolin -especially those born there- who learned to accept the treatment of the Wood-elves as 'just the way things were' because everyone around them did.  While I don't think Gondolin would have ever existed if Elwene died (she would have encouraged Turgon to stay with his family, and his relationship with Fingolfin and Fingon wouldn't have utterly deteriorated), if Turgon had still built Gondolin and the same dynamic of people inhabited it again, would Elwene have been influenced by the environment as Turgon was?  Lured into convincing herself that Turgon's argument of the 'greater good' was the right one?  I like to think she wouldn't be.  Idril, for the most part, knew what was happening was wrong, even Turgon knew it was wrong, and I think, with Elwene's council in his ear, wouldn't have been the one influencing HER into accepting this distorted reality, but HIM the one influenced by her steadier moral compass.
I wonder tho what might have happened with Turgon and Elwene if it was Idril who died....?  If it was the two of them left to live through that kind of grief, and guilt too, maybe even one, or both of them, blaming the other for Idril's death?  Or maybe they would have found comfort in each other and their marriage would have been a bond that reforged itself into titanium.

"in the end, I think Elenwë would have stayed for the reasons you have given, but also because she wouldn't have enough strenght or reasons herself to walk away... "

Yeah, though anyone can become a victim of an abusive relationship, I think that how she had been raised -to be so depended on a man-- would have been the biggest trap because she didn't have a net-work of friends to open her eyes to the reality of what was happening, nor the recourses to help her get out.  Like, Fingolfin and other's in Turgon's family would have helped her, but would she have asked?  How could she be sure they would help her and not take Turgon's side and try to convince her to stay?  She had left her family and people behind to follow Turgon, and he had his own group of supporters on top of that who they were living with....how easily it would have seemed like what she was feeling was all in her head!  Surrounded by Turgon's supporters, she would have been more isolated than ever.  (now I'm really glad that it didn't go this way in the story!  Thankfully Elwene was in a place where she had allies and resources when she broke from Turgon).

"He put her in such a pedestal that she was not even a person anymore, capable of feeling for herself, because she was this perfect thing that "lived for him". And then, nothing could compare to this love, of course, because it was an illusion - therefore his heartbreak when he couldn't even understand how and why she left him... Gosh, that's dense hahaha."

Oh, yeah, that's it completely!  And the worst is he still hasn't gotten to a place where he sees where he went wrong with her!  He's still in denial and blaming Finarfin :(

"And no because I want to rip his arm off and hit him with it for writing shitty tv series instead of finishing his goddamm books - I wouldn't do that to you, in case you wonder hahahaha"

LOL I'm totally with you there!  And it came back to bite him in the ass.  His inability to hold off on selling the rights (or at least hiring half-way decent writers!) until he'd at least finished Winds turned SO many people sour on his work!  Now, I wonder how many people are actually going to read it when it comes out and how many people are just over it, you know?  Tho, I will say one thing: all the new fans have brought a critical light to a lot of things about the books that were brushed under the rung.  He has had years now to educate himself and hear what his fans are saying about his treatment of people of color in his works, as well as women, and do better....if he will or not is the question, and I only have the smallest hope that he will LISTEN.  If he turns Dorne into a 'lesson on why vengeance is bAd' I'm going to what to kill something.
I should have pre-faced this little rant with: I have STRONG opinions about ASOIAF!!!! (like, seriously, you don't want to get me ranting on the racism treatment of Elia Martell and her kids, because I will keep shouting even if it's into the Void lol)

"About the finding out, a plea: please, don't kill my heart."

I have killed it enough in R & U I think even I have had my fill LOL but, seriously, I won't say everything is going to go smoothly, but I don't think I could bare to write another R & U any more than you could read it; it's about time we saw a little happiness for these two!

 

"But I just can't help it, it's too much to ask of my anxiety to NOT read it when I see it xD"
I feel you!  I've made my share of BAD CHOICES when I see an update of a story I love and I'm supposed to be getting ready for work.  That always ends well lol



Name: Spiced Wine (Signed) · Date: March 05, 2020 10:54 · For: Chapter 22
'Yes! You caught that! Finrod had no idea until she did it before his eyes. And yeah, it is a source of hope. And also a revolution on their way of thinking about their relationship with the Valar. They thought they needed Namo to rehouse the dead, and now they know they just need to free the souls and the souls can do it all themselves. And more: Caranthir and the twins who have rebuilt their own bodies have arrived! Elurin especially is important in this because he understood the process best and helped Caranthir remake his own body.'

My god! I know the rebels have no love for the Valar as it is, but SURELY there would be more (waverers, perhaps) who would be incensed, outraged at the lies and pomp and circumstance all wrapped around the dead being reborn through Námo's 'mercy', not to mention what the Valar have done to their minds when in Mandos.

And yes, of course Elúrin, so much power there, and also incalcuability, I'm not sure anyone knows (save you) what he can do.



Author's Response:
Ah, these Noldor :sigh: they are certainly not the cream of the crop!  I mean, these are the Noldor who were so complacent that they stayed in Valinor, and even of THAT number, the Valar purged those who had opened their eyes to the truth and had joined the rebellion.  Finding allies is an uphill battle now...some of the Gondolindhrim who have not shoved their heads up their asses and who have actually started to change their thinking, can help, and Idril does have an alliance with the Teleri and those Noldor who sailed....but it's not nearly enough to make war on the Valar.  Even all the host of the Noldor couldn't defeat Morgoth and his armies.  I'm afraid it's going to remain a war from the shadows until they get Feanor back and break down the walls of Mandos (a job for three certain Rings hint, hint).
You know, before I started writing this story, I thought we would have the Dead back in a few chapters, oh sweet summer child lol  We are certainly closer, but we are like 100, 000 words in :face plant:


Name: merwinem (Signed) · Date: February 28, 2020 20:39 · For: Chapter 22
What an emotional chapter. Some parts of it were so overwhelming, that I couldn’t read it in one sitting. Even now I still cannot get all my thoughts in order. Once again you’ve shown that the Feanorians are the core of this story. There are other compelling characters, of course, but they just cannot compare with the House of Feanor. The all-consuming love the members of this family have for one another never fails to hit me like a ton of bricks, and that is what makes this story so special. It’s strange that Turgon’s obsession with Elenwe feels wrong and stifling, but the devotion of the Feanorians toward one another doesn’t, despite all the tragedy that came of it.

This was a nice change of pace after all those chapters focused on Turgon and Idril. It is appropriate that Elmirion was the one to help Celebrian be reborn. I loved their relationship in Eregion. It was a great example of a healthy parent-child relationship. I think the story needed something positive and wholesome like this after all the drama involving Idril and her parents, Idril and Earendil, and even Finrod and Finarfin. I’m really interested about what Celebrian can bring to the table. What was the situation in Middle Earth when she sailed? Had Maglor succeeded in contacting Feanor by that point? Obviously Celebrian knows everything Celebrimbor learned from Annatar about the Halls of Mandos, so maybe the rebels can finally begin to make tentative plans using this information. There’s also Este to consider. I’m really excited for all the possibilities!

By the way – I am not even a tiny bit sorry for Finrod. Yes, he suffered, but he had no right to pile up his trauma on Elmirion. Elmirion has his own trauma to deal with, and he really doesn’t need any additional problems from Finrod. While I would love for all the Finwions to talk through their issues and become close by the end of the story, I realize that is very unlikely and unrealistic. At this point I think I could accept it if Finrod and Elmirion never became friends. Maybe this could be one of those unrealized relationships that might have been a great friendship in another time and in another place. Regardless, whatever you decide, I’m sure it won’t disappoint.

Does Earwen know about Elmirion’s existence? If she does, she most likely thinks that his Feanorian blood trumps everything else. I suppose Celebrian would be considered tainted by association.

It was great to see Elured trust Caranthir and seek him out for comfort. Caranthir’s protective feelings for the twins gave me a lot of warm fuzzy feelings. Of course the twins have so much trauma to work through. It’s interesting that despite opening up to Caranthir, they are still wary of other Noldor. I suppose interacting with and getting to know others would be a step in the right direction for them. I’m really interested to see how they will fit in with the other Feanorians.

I’m still undecided on Nerdanel. On the one hand, she didn’t leave a great impression after R+U (of course Feanor isn’t blameless in the breakdown of their relationship either), and her denying that she had sons was very upsetting for me. On the other hand, this is a second chance for everyone, and that includes her. I’ll have to see what choices she makes going forward. You know, I never thought that Curufin would be Nerdanel’s favorite child (I headcanoned that it would be Caranthir), but it somehow fits. It’s so ironic, considering Curufin’s abandonment issues.

Thank you for the chapter. There was so much here that tugged at my heartstrings, and I think I will need a few more days to regain my composure. You are a great writer, good job!

Author's Response:
 "Once again you’ve shown that the Feanorians are the core of this story. There are other compelling characters, of course, but they just cannot compare with the House of Feanor. The all-consuming love the members of this family have for one another never fails to hit me like a ton of bricks, and that is what makes this story so special." 

Thank you :)  

"It’s strange that Turgon’s obsession with Elenwe feels wrong and stifling, but the devotion of the Feanorians toward one another doesn’t, despite all the tragedy that came of it."

This is an interesting point that got me thinking about why exactly this was, because yes, at first glance Turgon's love for Elwene doesn't seem all that different from a Feanorion's love, and yet it gives off such a different vibe.  I think, in the end, it comes down to Turgon's love being blindness and a possessiveness that wants to hoard Elenwe all to himself.  He doesn't really know who Elenwe is now, and rather than accept her faults -her going to Finarfin for example- he closes his eyes and points his finger at Finarfin.  The Feanorions on the other hand love each other in spite of their flaws.  They know, intimately, who the others are, even some of their darkest secrets, and yet still love them.  And Turgon's possessiveness has a different edge to it to because if he got his way he would keep Elwene locked in a tower with him for eternity with either of them leaving or wanting to leave (he doesn't realize this is want he wants, but it is; he's terrified of losing her again, and his response to that is wanting to remove her for the world that thought take her away).  Compare that to Feanor who is possessive of his sons and fearful of loosing their love for him/ or others taking his place in their hearts like others took his place in his father's, but, while he has his moments of stumbling, in the end he chooses to let them go, to trust them, to loosen his tight hold before it turns to suffocation.  And because of that his sons love him all the more, but because Turgon could not let Elewne go, she felt like she was trapped.

"It is appropriate that Elmirion was the one to help Celebrian be reborn. I loved their relationship in Eregion. It was a great example of a healthy parent-child relationship."

So true!  I remember conciously making the choice to give Elmririon a loving environment to grow up in.  It could have turned out different if Celebrain was a different kind of person who resented the preagnancy and dropped Elmririon off with Celebrimbor and never looked back, but she showed herself to be a woman of quality :)

"I’m really interested about what Celebrian can bring to the table. What was the situation in Middle Earth when she sailed? Had Maglor succeeded in contacting Feanor by that point? Obviously Celebrian knows everything Celebrimbor learned from Annatar about the Halls of Mandos, so maybe the rebels can finally begin to make tentative plans using this information. There’s also Este to consider. I’m really excited for all the possibilities!"

Ah!!!  I'm glad you are thinking on these lines!  All very important questions that should be answered in the next few chapters.  Well, except for Maglor and Feanor.  Does he have the power to reach Feanor in Mandos...yes, he does, to a point.  But does he realize it?  The Silmarils are going to be key to getting Feanor out of Mandos, but right now Maglor only has half of the surviving duo, and doesn't yet know what he holds.  I do think though that every time he holds the Silmaril, an echo of his love reaches Feanor (probably the only thing keeping Feanor sane!), but Maglor doesn't yet know the effect he is having because Feanor can't reach back.

"While I would love for all the Finwions to talk through their issues and become close by the end of the story, I realize that is very unlikely and unrealistic. At this point I think I could accept it if Finrod and Elmirion never became friends. Maybe this could be one of those unrealized relationships that might have been a great friendship in another time and in another place. Regardless, whatever you decide, I’m sure it won’t disappoint."

Yeah, all the Finwions won't be friends at the end....but hopefully they will all grow to a point where they are no longer advisories!  We shall see what happens with Finrod and Elmririon, while on the one hand, you are completely right that Finrod doesn't really deserve a second chance after being so prejudiced against Elmriron, on the other, on the scale of awful things done to each other, Finrod's offense isn't really that bad. I think what makes it so frustrating is that Finrod should know better by this point...or at least it seems like he should.  I think a big test for him is how he will treat Caranthir.  Is he going to make the same mistake all over again when faced with another Feanorion?  I think that will be the real test on whether or not Elmririon would be open to building some kind of relationship with him.

"Does Earwen know about Elmirion’s existence?"

Nope.  They are trying to keep things are quite as possible, and now with Celebrain reborn without the Valar's knowledge, they need to keep things doubely under ramps!

"I’m still undecided on Nerdanel. On the one hand, she didn’t leave a great impression after R+U (of course Feanor isn’t blameless in the breakdown of their relationship either), and her denying that she had sons was very upsetting for me. On the other hand, this is a second chance for everyone, and that includes her. I’ll have to see what choices she makes going forward."

Oh I completely agree!  And we will see what happens between her and Caranthir once the fresh shine of reunion wears off.  There are a lot of issues to work through, and right now they are pretty much strangers to each other...well, worse than strangers because they have lots of baggage to unpack as well.

"You know, I never thought that Curufin would be Nerdanel’s favorite child (I headcanoned that it would be Caranthir), but it somehow fits. It’s so ironic, considering Curufin’s abandonment issues."

Ironic indeed!  But Curufin was not only an adorable kid, he also had so much in common with Feanor and, despite Feanor never returning her feelings, Nerdanel did fall in love with Feanor (a Feanor who had a lot in common with a young Curufin).  Caranthir's relationship with Nerdanel will be revealed more in-depth next chapter, tho I should through out that Caranthir is not an entirely reliable narrator when it comes to his childhood.  His relationship with Nerdanel was formed in childhood and never had the chance to mature and clarify in adulthood.  That's not to say that what he felt was in any way invalid, just that the events/motivations of, say Nerdanel, may not have been clearly understood by him.

This review was intense!  So thought-provoking, and exciting to hear how much you enjoyed the chapter!!!  You really spoiled me with this one :hugs:



Name: Kalendeer (Signed) · Date: February 27, 2020 20:39 · For: Chapter 22

(I accidentally hit the "submit" button before I was finished!)

Celebrian is still there? I thought she had merged with Estë? So a Fëa can power a Vala without being wholly consumed?

Finrod: Well if he's a Fëanorion he is untrustworthy, but if he is also my nephew then all his fine and now I am so sad I wasn't friendly! Finrod, you kind of deserve to be miserable here.

"When Father called Maedhros his little fox, Caranthir thought of the vixen, and it seemed to him that Father was the mother fox and they were his pups. Father cared for them as fiercely and devotedly as that mother, and they, in turn, followed him wherever he led."

Adequate description of Fëanor in the Revolutionary and the Usurper!

 

I was so happy when Caranthir and Nerdanel were reunited, and then felt so sad for poor Nerdanel. She couldn't even have that one perfect reunion with her son, one moment to sit down and talk to him or just keep hugging him forever...



Author's Response:

"Celebrian is still there? I thought she had merged with Estë? So a Fëa can power a Vala without being wholly consumed?"

Sorry for the confusion!  I'd describe what Celebrain did with Este as more imprinting.  To convince Este to help her keep her soul out of Mandos, she brought Este into her mind and threw everything she was at her, with the goal of trying to stir some empathy in Este, to make her feel SOMETHING for the Elves' plight.  It worked rather more intensely than Celebrain had planned.  Este experienced Celebrain's memories/life so vividly -especially for one of the Vala who had never lived-- that she thought she WAS Celebrain...at least for a time, and now she can't separated what Celebrain loves from what she loves, mostly because Este has never loved or really lived until she did through Celebrain.

 

"Finrod: Well if he's a Fëanorion he is untrustworthy, but if he is also my nephew then all his fine and now I am so sad I wasn't friendly! Finrod, you kind of deserve to be miserable here."

 

He dug his own hole on this one.

 

"I was so happy when Caranthir and Nerdanel were reunited, and then felt so sad for poor Nerdanel. She couldn't even have that one perfect reunion with her son, one moment to sit down and talk to him or just keep hugging him forever..."

 

We will see more of these two's interactions next chapter, but...I certainly can't promise perfection.  Caranthir is intensely loyal to his brothers, and he hasn't spoken to his mother since she left when he was 17.  That's a whole hell of a lot of time and a lot of changes.  I'd say they pretty much have to get to know each other all over again at this point.

 

 

Thank you so much for the review!  Love hearing from you :hugs:



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