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~ Fragments of Fate And Fire ~ by Spiced Wine Mature
This will be a collection of fics, commissioned art, and gapfillers to flesh out events within my Dark Prince/Magnificat...
~ Blood Kin ~ by Spiced Wine Teen
When Tindómion arrives at Imladris with his mother and Glorfindel, he will not swear to serve Elrond, only Glorfindel.    An...
Seven Stars and Seven Stones by ziggy General Audiences
It should be the time of Peace and plenty, except there are bonfires on the Barrow Downs and strange happenings on Amon Sûl...
The Battle Under the Trees by ziggy General Audiences
It had begun with a distant tremor in the Earth. Breathless messengers arrived from the East Bight. Smoke in the South,’...
~ A Crown of Ash ~ by Spiced Wine General Audiences
Set directly after A Throne of Shadows, with the Clouds now gutted by fire, events move to the north-west of Scotland. The...
Heralds of the Dawn by Encairion Mature
And death shall have no dominion. The final installment of The Price of Eternity series.  
Transmitting by curiouswombat Teen
Returnverse. Legolas' party of elves, a dwarf, and The Key, set off to explore their new lands. Ithilienne, left behind...

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Shoutbox

Naledi
08/11/20 05:50 pm
Hi Gabriel! Good to see you back xxx
Spiced Wine
08/09/20 10:01 am
It is at the moment, people just seem to update at the same time, lol
Gabriel
08/09/20 06:42 am
Thanks Spiced! And it's so good to see this site so busy. :)
Spiced Wine
08/08/20 09:38 am
That’s so good to know, Gabriel :) I’m so glad!
Gabriel
08/08/20 08:35 am
Hey everyone! It feels like forever since I posted here. Good news though, am writing again. Yay! Good break away does wonders.
Spiced Wine
08/07/20 12:45 pm
And happy Friday everyone. Keep safe :)
Spiced Wine
08/07/20 10:59 am
Ziggy, don’t worry about it. We don’t have enough posting traffic to bother about that these days
FirstAmazon
08/07/20 12:12 am
Ziggy, Spiced and Encairion posting in the same week - boy am I lucky! <3 thank you for the incredible updates!!
ziggy
08/06/20 10:44 pm
Sorry again- just posted two updates. It's just that I work in one whilst I am waiting for Anar to edit the other. And she is being very quick.Apologies.
Spiced Wine
08/06/20 10:43 pm
That was an incredible chapter, Ziggy! I feel spoiled, you and Encarion in one week :)
Shout Archive



Name: Spiced Wine (Signed) · Date: July 07, 2020 18:21 · For: Chapter 21
Feanor was able to sort of ‘run away’ into it when everything became too much. I don’t think he was aware of what was happening around him, but it was a safe space to let his spirit rest. Maybe this has something to do with how addictive the Silm was...it was a lot more powerful than its siblings and grew into an entity of its own…hmm….questions still to be answered :) I love it when the story reveals its secrets as I’m writing it and it’s like an epiphany! Like a puzzle coming together all at once :)

Ah, that would be some kind of respite for Fëanor, if he could be enfolded within the Silmaril in some way yes. What a stunning thought! At least a small escape. Wow! And the Silmaril does have a distinct personality, yes!

Author's Response:

The Silmarils are still a rather mystical entity in my mind.  I haven’t figured out their full powers, but I’m fine with that now as I don’t think anyone, even Feanor, is entirely aware of their full potential.  But they will be instrumental in breaking Feanor out of Mandos, so they will have to answer all my questions eventually lol



Name: Spiced Wine (Signed) · Date: June 23, 2020 9:44 · For: Chapter 21

So, how much is Feanor able to use the Silmarils to connect with the living world?  I do think that THIS Silmaril in particular is aware and active in a way the two trapped on Morgoth’s crown aren’t (poor Maglor!  He’s not going to hear a message from his father….BUT Feanor might just be able to feel that Maglor has possession of the Silmaril and is still alive!).  This one is special tho because of the connection it had with Dior and Elwing; the Silmaril isn’t a person tho it has a will of its own, so it had no moral compunction against using Dior and Elwing as an energy source and beefing up its power.  Which ended terribly for them, but will probably be a major factor in Feanor’s jail break!

Oh wow, yes, I see now, and Fëanor does need some hope (When I think of what has been done to him I want to howl and scream) 



Author's Response:

Yes!  It’s too terrible to dwell on!  It was horrible enough writing those scenes in Mandos!  I like to think that after the Silm was taken from Morgoth and started gathering it’s strength, Feanor was able to sort of ‘run away’ into it when everything became too much.  I don’t think he was aware of what was happening around him, but it was a safe space to let his spirit rest.  Maybe this has something to do with how addictive the Silm was...it was a lot more powerful than its siblings and grew into an entity of its own…hmm….questions still to be answered :)  I love it when the story reveals its secrets as I’m writing it and it’s like an epiphany!  Like a puzzle coming together all at once :)



Name: Spiced Wine (Signed) · Date: June 16, 2020 22:50 · For: Chapter 21

The Silmaril’s moment of contrition passed, and it took a step towards Eärendil. “We will not hurt you,” it took another slow step as if approaching a wild animal. “You were not to be used in that way.  He told us not to.”

Eärendil planted his feet, bracing himself for its approach. He would not turn and run no matter how his insides clenched against the thought of its hungry wolf-mouth. He did not know what it was talking about, but since it was a thief, no doubt it had stolen this memory as well. “Oh? Because it rather feels like I was on the menu.”

The Silmaril stopped right in front of him, a pillar of light and eyes like silver-fire. Eärendil had to tilt his face up to meet them. Whether this was Fëanor’s true height, or if the Silmaril had created a more imposing imitation of him, Eärendil did not know.  

“It was the poison,” the Silmaril said with the voice like the singing of light, the way it used to sing in a thousand colors and octaves purer than any beauty born of the Valar’s hands, not sky or stars or seas or deserts vast. “We were not ourselves. But it is purged now. The fire burned us clean, and the love.” Its hand rose, hovering like a pale white moth above the curve of Eärendil’s cheek. Eärendil’s nostrils expanded around a breath. He would not run nor duck his head from the burn of these eyes. 

Almost…almost it seemed he knew them, but that was ridiculous. Fëanor had died long before his birth, and Eärendil had nothing to do with Fëanorions. They had stolen his sons. He did not hate them because they had kept his sons safe in their kidnapper-arms, but he was thankful he’d been spared ever meeting one and having to test if his almost-forgiveness spread far enough to hear his sons’ names fall from their mouths as if they belonged there.

“The love,” the Silmaril breathed like it spoke of the holiness of gods, “Called to him. The door is yet shut, but the whisper of him comes like the taste of thunderstorms on the wind, and we burn.”

 

This -- every time I read this it makes heat and shiver run down my spine in a way that great musical scores do.

 

Fëanor is dead, but not defeated; he is still burning, still fighting, and the Silmaril feels him. There is such immensity in that, such grandeur and power that I almost expect Fëanor himself to walk out of the lost ages. I know he won't but this is superlative. 



Author's Response:

Thank you, Spiced!  I love this part with the Silmarils too!  It opens so many possibilities and also a window of hope for Feanor trapped in the halls that maybe he isn’t still in that desperate torment we last saw him in, for the Silmaril is very much implying that it’s in some kind of communication with him.  So, how much is Feanor able to use the Silmarils to connect with the living world?  I do think that THIS Silmaril in particular is aware and active in a way the two trapped on Morgoth’s crown aren’t (poor Maglor!  He’s not going to hear a message from his father….BUT Feanor might just be able to feel that Maglor has possession of the Silmaril and is still alive!).  This one is special tho because of the connection it had with Dior and Elwing; the Silmaril isn’t a person tho it has a will of its own, so it had no moral compunction against using Dior and Elwing as an energy source and beefing up its power.  Which ended terribly for them, but will probably be a major factor in Feanor’s jail break!

Thank you so much for the review and drawing me back into the story :)  It’s good to keep it on my mind even if I can’t reach the step of picking up writing again.

Hope this finds you well :hugs:



Name: FirstAmazon (Signed) · Date: February 13, 2020 15:13 · For: Chapter 1

I did that on purpose.  I meant to torture you lol  Really though, I was thinking about the romantic stories I like best, and only being in the POV of one character can heighten the tension, I think.  With Gil-galad's reservation, it was even tougher for Glorfindel to figure him out.  (Talking about these two with you has got me craving Gil-galad's rebirth!  There is so much still to explore with him.  Gods, I want everyone back and all the reunions we've been waiting so long for! 


Oh god you evil, evil writer! I know, knowing both POVs kind of spreads the tension (I can't help it myself, I like exploring all possible sides lol) but if I made you crave for Gil-Galad's rebirth, then mission accomplished. I'll just sit back and enjoy the ride xD 


And yes, that's me we are waiting on here lol, but you ever just really want someone else to write your own story so you can enjoy all the fun of reading it :snorts:)


Well, that's a bit problematic, since it's not nearly easy to fill in your shoes. So get back to work, lady! (no pressure, I swear, no pressure! lol) I'm kidding, I actually don't know the feeling of wanting to enjoy my stories (any) as a reader, since I'm never satisified with anything hahaha. 



Author's Response:

Well, that's a bit problematic, since it's not nearly easy to fill in your shoes. So get back to work, lady! (no pressure, I swear, no pressure! lol) I'm kidding, I actually don't know the feeling of wanting to enjoy my stories (any) as a reader, since I'm never satisified with anything hahaha.”

 

Ha!  You know, after I sent that I was thinking more about it, and thought NOT being the one writing the story would drive me crazy.  While I’m all down for the muse taking me where it will, in the end I have the final say, and after so much time devoted to the story, I have very strong ideas about where it’s headed.  (All that said tho, there have also been plenty of times I wish I could write and Au of my own story lol).  So now I both want to read it but also want to write it.  Wow, indecisive much :grins:

 

Maybe after a while you will want to come back and just relax and enjoy your own story.  I confess that when I’m going back to edit old stuff I get caught up in the story because I forget what happens next (a sign of a mega length fic lol).



Name: FirstAmazon (Signed) · Date: February 03, 2020 17:00 · For: Chapter 1

"All that said, their bond meant more to GIl-galad than it did Celebrimbor.  Celebrimbor knew what it was to have a family, he wasn't like Gil-galad who had grown up alone in that regard, an orphan with an orphan's craving for family and that sense of belonging.  Celebrimbor was the most Gil-galad had ever loved someone romantically, or loved at all after his father and mother's deaths.  But the love was a mix between loves, family, brotherhood, companionship, and the desire for a lover too.  But with Glorfindel he was very much IN LOVE with Glorfindel, and it was the lack of strong bonds of friendship /intamcy underneath that caused the problems."

Oh, god! This understanding kills me. You will find it amusing, no doubt, but I actually dreamed about these two reuniting (LOLOL no joke!). That's how much I'm anticipating your story - no pressure, no pressure hahaha!

 

"Or maybe beautiful, radiant Glorfindel just intimidated the hell out of him lol"

 

That's something I would REALLY like to see... Gil-Galad's point of view of all this!


"YOU are the one with a way with words!  Gods, your reviews!  I can put them into words!  They are just such a blessing, sun-bright, like a huge wrapped up in words, full of encouragement!  Thank you!!!! :::hugs:::"

 

:hugging back: <3



Author's Response:

"You will find it amusing, no doubt, but I actually dreamed about these two reuniting (LOLOL no joke!). That's how much I'm anticipating your story - no pressure, no pressure hahaha!"

 

No pressure right.  lol  But seriously, this is a huge complement!  

 

"That's something I would REALLY like to see... Gil-Galad's point of view of all this!"

 

I did that on purpose.  I meant to torture you lol  Really though, I was thinking about the romantic stories I like best, and only being in the POV of one character can heighten the tension, I think.  With Gil-galad's reservation, it was even tougher for Glorfindel to figure him out.  (Talking about these two with you has got me craving Gil-galad's rebirth!  There is so much still to explore with him.  Gods, I want everyone back and all the reunions we've been waiting so long for!  And yes, that's me we are waiting on here lol, but you ever just really want someone else to write your own story so you can enjoy all the fun of reading it :snorts:)



Name: FirstAmazon (Signed) · Date: January 31, 2020 16:24 · For: Chapter 1

This.  So much.  Especially on Glorfindel's side with Gil-galad repressing so many of his thoughts and feelings.  At this point in his life, Gil-galad clamps done on vulnerability by instinct.  He had a messed up childhood in its own way.  Forced to grow up too fast, put in an impossible position as king of a dying people, and then being so alone and isolated on top of that.  After his mother died, he was left with advisers who often cared more about the legacy he represented, the symbol of his blood, and the survival of their people, than Gil-galad himself.  It was abuse, what they did to him, even if he's never seen it that way and the ones perpetrating the abuse did not see it as abuse.  We saw a glimpse of what he went through, but there is a lot of Gil-galad's childhood still left in the dark.  He's worked hard to overcome his past, he's defeated the anger that used to control him, come to terms with his mistakes -his treatment of the Feanorions under his care and the way he used sex, and people, unhealthily as a coping mechanism-- but he still finds it really had to open himself emotionally after all the times he'd been burned as a young king.  He learned the hard way that there are people out there who would use his every vulnerability to their gain.

Ok, I see it now. He was alone as a child-king, all his advisors and councellors expecting him to be something else in a time where a wrong political move would be fatal for his people. Of course the court would take advantage over a child-king if they saw anything weakness. But if nothing else, I'm glad he realized how wrong his behavior with Elros had been, even if he wasn't able to love him in the end.

More of the latter.  Glorfindel didn't read the situation right, unreliable narrator and all that.  Gil-galad was in love with Celebrimbor, but he didn't even relize it himself, though the shadow of that loss sticks with him and makes it harder to open himself to another.  But that sex scene was a mess because neither understood the other yet, so there were a lot of misunderstandings and then lashings out.

 

The thing about Gil-galad and Glorfindel's relationship was that it was cut off in the middle.  There was no resolution, no moment where they finally laid it all on the table and talked and saw the whole of the other.  I think their relationship comes off as half-finished because it was.  They hadn't reached that depth with each other that would have solified their love.  With where they ended, Gil-galad had not won all of Glorfindel's heart and Gil-galad loved and desired Glorfindel, but did not know him with the intimacy he knew Celebrimbor. 

 

 

Oh, yeah, I wondered about Gil-Galad's reactions because he was so unreadable to our narrator. But looking back, it's all there - all the confusion between them and, as you said, the lack of friendship and intimacy that Gil-Galad shared with Celebrimbor and even Gildor. It's obvious, if I think about it now, that Gil-Galad and Glorfindel didn't had the same amount of time to know one another. And although it's beautiful to think that, in so short time, Gil-Galad fell in love with him (because, again, who wouldn't? <3) it also made things impossible. The timing was terrible! Celebrimbor's death and the war only enhanced their distance. I also think that, while Maglor was well, Glorfindel wouldn't have pursued his desires as he did during the Dagorlad (but I could be wrong, since Glorfindel became this powerful, confident force in itself).

 

It was hard for him to return to the pureness of his childhood memories of Fingon after his mind had been so warped with lies.  And then Glorfinedel comes along, and Gil-galad falls in love with someone in love with his father, and he ends up battling against envy, not only of Glorifndel's love for Fingon, but also of Glorfindel's chance to know his father as Gil-galad fears he never will.  He did not want his love for his father to be poisoned again but found it hard to battle against.  And then, when he might have overcome all this, he gets the vision of Glorfindel's death.  After he makes the decision to die in Glorfindel's place, he withdraws for Glorifndle's sake, not wanting to take more of Glorfindle's heart than he has into death.  

 

You said this on the other comment. It's crazy of Gil-Galad to think he was intimate with such a closed person as Celebrimbor. I mean, they shared ONE kiss (which Gil-Galad told us it wasn't reciprocated), and then there was that one time before Elmírion's birth. It's curious to think that Gil-Galad allowed himself to think they had intimacy - when they might have none, for Celebrimbor's part - and deny himself to open to Glorfindel, even if it was to put aside his idea of Fingon, and also allow Glorfindel to see him for whom he was. But that required emotional maturity, which Gil-Galad certainly didn't have, for all his political cleverness.

 

The only thing that still gnaws at me is that Gil-Galad didn't reach out to breach the distance he purposefully put between them when they were reunited during the war, before he dreamed of Glorfindel's death. I understand his attitudes now, but I still want to knock their heads together. Just talk, people, it's not that hard! xD

 

Anyway, it all makes more sense now, thanks for clarifying it! ^^

 

Yes, Gil-galad had already dreamed Glorfindel's death and already decided to take his place.  To him, walking away from Glorfindel and putting distance between them was him protecting Glorfindel.  Gil-galad believed himself destined for death, and believed the most self-less and loving thing he could do was push Glorfindel away before Glorfindel fell too deep.  And, in a way, he was right.  Glorfindel mourned, but he was able to go on with his life and know happiness in the years to come.  Gil-galad's death did not destroy him like Fingon's did Maedhros,' or Elmirion's did Celebrimbor.


Oh god, this! So tragic, so beautiful! The ultimate love proof </3 and yes, I totally agree that Gil-Galad would be far more devasteted if Glorfindel died because, even though he had Gildor's love, they were not romantically attached. He didn't have anything like the unconditional love Maglor had for Glorfindel.


I just love how much you love the story!  Seriously, it feels amazing :)  I just want to roll around in your reviews, or wear them like a snugly blanket.  You are amazing :hugs:


Please, do! They're here for the taking LOL


But seriously now, your story is just too incredible! It's so complex, so rich in details, and so powerful I lack words. Everytime I re-read some passage (because yeah, I just can't get enough), I wonder how you can weave such things - the political intrigues, how you encompass the evolution of a whole continent (in warfare, religion, costumes, clothing, language...) it's ridiculous! hahaha I'm gonna stop now, 'cause I feel I could go on indefinitely. YOU are amazing, dear Beth :)



Author's Response:
"I also think that, while Maglor was well, Glorfindel wouldn't have pursued his desires as he did during the Dagorlad (but I could be wrong, since Glorfindel became this powerful, confident force in itself)."

No, I think you're right.  If Maglor were well, Glorfindel would have not only had that relationship/love to sustain him, he also wouldn't have spent as much time with Gil-galad, choosing Maglor instead.

 

"It's crazy of Gil-Galad to think he was intimate with such a closed person as Celebrimbor. I mean, they shared ONE kiss (which Gil-Galad told us it wasn't reciprocated), and then there was that one time before Elmírion's birth. It's curious to think that Gil-Galad allowed himself to think they had intimacy - when they might have none, for Celebrimbor's part - and deny himself to open to Glorfindel, even if it was to put aside his idea of Fingon, and also allow Glorfindel to see him for whom he was. But that required emotional maturity, which Gil-Galad certainly didn't have, for all his political cleverness."

 

You are right to question the depth of Gil-galad and Celebrimbor's relationship.  I do think it was far more on Gil-galad's side than Celebrimnor's.  It goes back to the bleakness, the loneliness, of Gil-galad's life.  He did make some friends that had no blood ties to him, but there is something much more intense about sharing a deep bond with a Finweion because of how tied up their histories and destinies were.  They all fell under the Doom, they all experienced the pressures of leadership, Celerbimbor and Gil-galad both living through some of the darkest years (perhaps THE darkest years) of their people's history, and then the two of them had the shared experience of being sons of men who had done some terrible things (at least before Gil-galad learned the truth).  Those shared experiences laid the foundations for the bond between them, and it only enhanced in those years before Glorfindel and Maglor's return when there were so so few of their family left.

 

All that said, their bond meant more to GIl-galad than it did Celebrimbor.  Celebrimbor knew what it was to have a family, he wasn't like Gil-galad who had grown up alone in that regard, an orphan with an orphan's craving for family and that sense of belonging.  Celebrimbor was the most Gil-galad had ever loved someone romantically, or loved at all after his father and mother's deaths.  But the love was a mix between loves, family, brotherhood, companionship, and the desire for a lover too.  But with Glorfindel he was very much IN LOVE with Glorfindel, and it was the lack of strong bonds of friendship /intamcy underneath that caused the problems.

 

"The only thing that still gnaws at me is that Gil-Galad didn't reach out to breach the distance he purposefully put between them when they were reunited during the war, before he dreamed of Glorfindel's death. I understand his attitudes now, but I still want to knock their heads together. Just talk, people, it's not that hard! xD"


Yeah, you are totally right.  Everything would have worked out so much better if Gil-galad had.  I suppose this is one of his great weaknesses, as you put it, his lack of emotional maturity -or maybe emotional confidence, trust?  Or maybe beautiful, radiant Glorfindel just intimidated the hell out of him lol


"But seriously now, your story is just too incredible! It's so complex, so" rich in details, and so powerful I lack words. Everytime I re-read some passage (because yeah, I just can't get enough), I wonder how you can weave such things - the political intrigues, how you encompass the evolution of a whole continent (in warfare, religion, costumes, clothing, language...) it's ridiculous! hahaha I'm gonna stop now, 'cause I feel I could go on indefinitely. YOU are amazing, dear Beth :)"

 

YOU are the one with a way with words!  Gods, your reviews!  I can put them into words!  They are just such a blessing, sun-bright, like a huge wrapped up in words, full of encouragement!  Thank you!!!! :::hugs:::



Name: FirstAmazon (Signed) · Date: January 28, 2020 17:26 · For: Chapter 55
You know, it's been a week or so since I finished The Price of Vengeance II but, like all good literature, I just keep going back to the relationship between your amazing Gil-Galad and my sweetheart Glorfindel.

Help me understand, please! Because I think Gil-Galad is your second most complex character losing to Glorfindel only because he is so mysterious! I'm never quite sure of what he's thinking or what he really wants. At first it seemed like he envied Glorfindel for being openly gay, wishing to be more like him, and, at the same time, wishing Glorfindel was a little rougher, perhaps more like Celebrimbor? Although he appeared to be very attracted - because with this Glorfindel, who wouldn't? - and a great admirer of his warrior skills. But being as close as he was, I wager Glorfindel would cause him as much wonder as he caused Glorfindel: they couldn't quite read the other.

There was a moment I thought Gil-Galad wished Glorfindel didn't see Fingon in him all the time, and that's what kept him secretive about admitting his love - which is funny, because in the end Glorfindel indeed saw only Gil-Galad. On the other hand, did Gil-Galad really pretended it was Celebrimbor in bed with him? Or was it that both idiots loved each other and thought their loves were unrequited? Maybe Gil-Galad even knew he was in love with Glorfindel much sooner, and Glorfindel only thought his attraction would never be corresponded xD that would be very Finwëion indeed (but then... Why would Glorfindel refuse him after he'd forgiven him?)

And if Gil-Galad loved Glorfindel as I think he did, dreaming about his death (when Glorfindel kissed him the first time in the watch tower, right?) didn't help at all. Anyway, a lot of emotions going on - seriously, this thing you do is unbelievable!

Author's Response:

"You know, it's been a week or so since I finished The Price of Vengeance II but, like all good literature, I just keep going back to the relationship between your amazing Gil-Galad and my sweetheart Glorfindel."

 

Yes! :fist pump: It's amazing to hear the story/characters stuck with you like that!

 

"Help me understand, please! Because I think Gil-Galad is your second most complex character losing to Glorfindel only because he is so mysterious!"

 

Oh, yeah, I agree, he's one of the most complex.  There is so much going on under the surface, I feel like there's still much about him that I don't yet understand either!

 

"At first it seemed like he envied Glorfindel for being openly gay, wishing to be more like him, and, at the same time, wishing Glorfindel was a little rougher, perhaps more like Celebrimbor?"

 

I don't really think that Gil-galad envies Glorfindel's confidence with his sexuality, but is more wistful and envious of Glorfindel's position in society that allows him to be open.  Gil-galad doesn't feel like he has that freedom.  He feels the pressure of kingship, he doesn't want to alienate large portions of his people, but he is also hopefully that his people will soon have progressed enough to accept him as he is.

 

"they couldn't quite read the other."


This.  So much.  Especially on Glorfindel's side with Gil-galad repressing so many of his thoughts and feelings.  At this point in his life, Gil-galad clamps done on vulnerability by instinct.  He had a messed up childhood in its own way.  Forced to grow up too fast, put in an impossible position as king of a dying people, and then being so alone and isolated on top of that.  After his mother died, he was left with advisers who often cared more about the legacy he represented, the symbol of his blood, and the survival of their people, than Gil-galad himself.  It was abuse, what they did to him, even if he's never seen it that way and the ones perpetrating the abuse did not see it as abuse.  We saw a glimpse of what he went through, but there is a lot of Gil-galad's childhood still left in the dark.  He's worked hard to overcome his past, he's defeated the anger that used to control him, come to terms with his mistakes -his treatment of the Feanorions under his care and the way he used sex, and people, unhealthily as a coping mechanism-- but he still finds it really had to open himself emotionally after all the times he'd been burned as a young king.  He learned the hard way that there are people out there who would use his every vulnerability to their gain.

"On the other hand, did Gil-Galad really pretended it was Celebrimbor in bed with him? Or was it that both idiots loved each other and thought their loves were unrequited?"


More of the latter.  Glorfindel didn't read the situation right, unreliable narrator and all that.  Gil-galad was in love with Celebrimbor, but he didn't even relize it himself, though the shadow of that loss sticks with him and makes it harder to open himself to another.  But that sex scene was a mess because neither understood the other yet, so there were a lot of misunderstandings and then lashings out.


The thing about Gil-galad and Glorfindel's relationship was that it was cut off in the middle.  There was no resolution, no moment where they finally laid it all on the table and talked and saw the whole of the other.  I think their relationship comes off as half-finished because it was.  They hadn't reached that depth with each other that would have solified their love.  With where they ended, Gil-galad had not won all of Glorfindel's heart and Gil-galad loved and desired Glorfindel, but did not know him with the intimacy he knew Celebrimbor. 


"And if Gil-Galad loved Glorfindel as I think he did, dreaming about his death (when Glorfindel kissed him the first time in the watch tower, right?) didn't help at all. Anyway, a lot of emotions going on - seriously, this thing you do is unbelievable!"

Yes, Gil-galad had already dreamed Glorfindel's death and already decided to take his place.  To him, walking away from Glorfindel and putting distance between them was him protecting Glorfindel.  Gil-galad believed himself destined for death, and believed the most self-less and loving thing he could do was push Glorfindel away before Glorfindel fell too deep.  And, in a way, he was right.  Glorfindel mourned, but he was able to go on with his life and know happiness in the years to come.  Gil-galad's death did not destroy him like Fingon's did Maedhros,' or Elmirion's did Celebrimbor.

I just love how much you love the story!  Seriously, it feels amazing :)  I just want to roll around in your reviews, or wear them like a snugly blanket.  You are amazing :hugs:



Name: FirstAmazon (Signed) · Date: January 21, 2020 20:32 · For: Chapter 57
Goddamit! Here I am again, crying my eyes out. What an AMAZING story! I don't know what I'm gonna do with this ending, but knowing Maglor eventually returns to his full self (it doesn't matter how hahaha) and is able to help Elrohir in the future is (kind of) enough.

My head kept spinning from beginning to end with all the romantic relations going on. I love how you wove the houses of Fëanor and Fingolfin in a way that even their great-grandsons are deeply connected, seeking comfort in each other and not being able to love anyone else. Just... beautifully done!

I loved the way you worked Celebrimbor's relationship with Annatar. The way you describe his emotions (or lack of them) was chilling, thrilling and threw me in a pit where I knew Sauron was capable of loving, even if it was a twisted one.

And OMG Glorfindel! His development was absolutely SUPERB! I loved every bit of it, from his beautiful relationship with Maglor and all the unrequited love between the cousins. Just wow! And although I really love what you did with all these characters, how you built their personalities and emotions, he is my top favorite character from your series! Beautiful and confident like he should've always been. I was so happy I got to see that!

Nevertheless, his relationship with Gil-Galad left me with a bittersweet aftertaste, because I wasn't able to see why the hell Gil-Galad was doing that to himself. I mean, I know he had to use the king's mask, and I know he was in love with Celebrimbor, but I don't get why he mistreated Glorfindel so much. Correct me if I'm wrong: I think he fell in love with but wasn't able to cross the barrier the memory of Fingon represented in the other's heart - also, maybe he had a little prejudice, even if he had desired. I mean, he steals a rosebud from Glorfindel's hair, then lies on a bed of roses and has him standing in a podium as his utmost hero - that was such a BEAUTIFUL image inside his mind! But from the start, since he'd made Glorfindel his second-in-command (with his pretty outfit, a wonderful, funny scene), I knew Gil-Galad wanted to open himself, but something kept holding him back. Was it really because of Fingon?

Anyway, the sharing of Glorfindel's memories was so powerful, and then his death - god! It broke me, like few in your series did. I really loved your Gil-Galad, even with all his coldness and his faults. As I said time and again, your writing is so compelling I forget this is not cannon.

Just... please, don't stop, all right? I'm jumping now to the Heralds of Dawn because I *NEED* to see the end of it, all of them kicking the Valar's asses, reclaiming the souls from Mandos, reuniting - oh god, I can almost SEE all of these things happening, and how they would react, such is the imagery you've given me.

Actually, if you chose to never stop writing I won't complain. Ever. xD and sorry for the babble of words, I'm still an emotional wreck xD

Author's Response:

"Goddamit! Here I am again, crying my eyes out. What an AMAZING story! I don't know what I'm gonna do with this ending, but knowing Maglor eventually returns to his full self (it doesn't matter how hahaha) and is able to help Elrohir in the future is (kind of) enough."

 

Thank you so much :grins:  The ending was such a tease, wasn't it?  I'm not sure if I'll ever go back and write Maglor's recovery, but for now, at least we know he does recover!


"My head kept spinning from beginning to end with all the romantic relations going on. I love how you wove the houses of Fëanor and Fingolfin in a way that even their great-grandsons are deeply connected, seeking comfort in each other and not being able to love anyone else. Just... beautifully done!"

 

Ah, the House of Finwe!  Every time I have an idea for a pairing outside Finwe's House, the characters refuse to corporate lol.  I can't tell you how many plot points they've ruined!  I actually hadn't meant for Glorfindel/Gil-galad to be a thing, but the two of them wouldn't have it any other way :)

"I loved the way you worked Celebrimbor's relationship with Annatar. The way you describe his emotions (or lack of them) was chilling, thrilling and threw me in a pit where I knew Sauron was capable of loving, even if it was a twisted one."

 

So glad to hear you enjoyed it!  Annatar was one of those characters I was incredibly nervous about writing.  Getting into the head of someone that messy up and that intelligent is hella intimidating, so it means all the more to me to hear you think I pulled it off :)

"And OMG Glorfindel! His development was absolutely SUPERB! I loved every bit of it, from his beautiful relationship with Maglor and all the unrequited love between the cousins. Just wow! And although I really love what you did with all these characters, how you built their personalities and emotions, he is my top favorite character from your series! Beautiful and confident like he should've always been. I was so happy I got to see that!"

 

Oh, this makes me happy!  I just love Glorfindel so much too!  I've put him through hell but he's finally found himself and refuses to let anyone take that away from him.

"Nevertheless, his relationship with Gil-Galad left me with a bittersweet aftertaste, because I wasn't able to see why the hell Gil-Galad was doing that to himself. I mean, I know he had to use the king's mask, and I know he was in love with Celebrimbor, but I don't get why he mistreated Glorfindel so much. Correct me if I'm wrong: I think he fell in love with but wasn't able to cross the barrier the memory of Fingon represented in the other's heart - also, maybe he had a little prejudice, even if he had desired. I mean, he steals a rosebud from Glorfindel's hair, then lies on a bed of roses and has him standing in a podium as his utmost hero - that was such a BEAUTIFUL image inside his mind! But from the start, since he'd made Glorfindel his second-in-command (with his pretty outfit, a wonderful, funny scene), I knew Gil-Galad wanted to open himself, but something kept holding him back. Was it really because of Fingon?"

 

Gil-galad is...complicated.   He was a child-king in the middle of a war they had no hope of winning where everyone was looking at this orphaned boy all alone in the world to save them.  He made himself stone, hid himself away, became The King until he didn't know how to be anything else.  He had a ton of issues to deal with, but while he's gotten better in a lot of ways, he still has work to do.  Making himself vulnerable is really hard for him as he sees it as a weakness to be exploited.  Being so repressed in his emotions, he's not completely in touch with them either.  While he did love celebrimbor romantically, HE never realized this.  But loosing the last person he loved to death, as he'd lost so many others, defiantly played a role in his reluctance to open himself to glorfindel.  His relationship with his father also became poisoned by galadriel.  Eventually he learned the truth, but not until after he'd carried around the weight of believing his father was a rapist for centuries.  It was hard for him to return to the pureness of his childhood memories of Fingon after his mind had been so warped with lies.  And then Glorfinedel comes along, and Gil-galad falls in love with someone in love with his father, and he ends up battling against envy, not only of Glorifndel's love for Fingon, but also of Glorfindel's chance to know his father as Gil-galad fears he never will.  He did not want his love for his father to be poisoned again but found it hard to battle against.  And then, when he might have overcome all this, he gets the vision of Glorfindel's death.  After he makes the decision to die in Glorfindel's place, he withdraws for Glorifndle's sake, not wanting to take more of Glorfindle's heart than he has into death.  

 

Gil-galad has a complicated relationship with intimacy.  He is both afraid of the pain that comes after, but also afraid to make others suffer that pain on his behalf.  He hasn't learned that it's better to have loved than to never love at all.

"Just... please, don't stop, all right? I'm jumping now to the Heralds of Dawn because I *NEED* to see the end of it, all of them kicking the Valar's asses, reclaiming the souls from Mandos, reuniting - oh god, I can almost SEE all of these things happening, and how they would react, such is the imagery you've given me."

 

I am determined to finish this series even if it takes me another decade, even if it's the only thing I ever write again, I have to finish!  So, you see, I treasure all your kind words and encouragement, I need them like fuel for the road ahead :)  I hoe you enjoy Heralds, and wish I could give you all the Dead returned and all the reunions we've been waiting for, but, as you have no doubt discovered, we have a ways yet to go before we get there :(



Name: Spiced Wine (Signed) · Date: February 02, 2019 21:14 · For: Chapter 11

In all the terrible sadness, the part of this chapter where Glorfindel and Maglor ‘return’ to where Fëanor was playing games with them shines like pure gold. You write Fëanor better than anyone I have ever read, in 12 years in the fandom: all his facets, his faults, his strengths and weaknesses — the abandoned child at the heart of him — his brilliance and madness and grief and everything; you’ve left nothing out in your series, and he is revealed exactly as he should be, a truly larger-than-life, incredible, magnificent character who adored his sons. Not that I ever believed he didn’t, and would never even look at a writer who portrayed him as a bad father (a bad father’s sons would not have followed him to their doom; had they hated him or been afraid of him they could have stayed in Valinor) but the time he put in, laying aside his dreams, his work, his creations for them is really estimable. He was never too busy for them (neither was Fingolfin, although he was not as blessed in his children, I think, apart from Fingon). 

This is Fëanor how he ought to be written: stupendous but also ‘human’, making mistakes, but being a genius, misunderstood but loved, brilliant, but blind to things that he does not want to recognise (like Fingolfin’s loyalty and love) obsessed but not just for himself. If anyone came into the fandom and wanted to read about the ‘real’ Fëanor, I would direct them to your stories. 

It also makes me so sad that these golden moments, (and the live of the Fëanorion sons must have been rich with them when they were young) were destroyed. 

Of course the Valar couldn’t stomach him, he was far too dangerous. 



Author's Response:
Thank you!

You know, it took me years to really write Feanor.  He was this presence in the stories, and we caught glimpses of him, but it wasn't until I wrote R+ U that I finally tackled the fear of writing him -and it was a fear.  For he loomed in my mind every bit as large-than-life as you too see him as.  It was like trying to write a star, or a wildfire, he seemed this force of nature, on top of his incredible intellect that I never thought I'd be able to do justice to.  But I am so glad that I did because writing R+U was one of -if not the-- best time I have ever had writing anything.  I got to spend all this time in the heads of two of my favorite characters and write UST galore lol

I still feel like he is a character I cannot fully grasp -tho that's true for every character since there is always something still to explore and learn about them-- but tho he still intimidates the hell out of me lol I still can't wait until he's reborn and I get to write him again!!! 


Name: Spiced Wine (Signed) · Date: October 13, 2018 16:47 · For: Chapter 33

She, she, who had led their ungrateful carcasses across the Helcaraxë! She, who had faced Fëanor in the firestorm of his madness without fear, never once backing down when the madness flew from his mouth like spittle and all other eyes shied away. She had shown them all what it meant to be of Finwë’s blood, and ruled Ost-in-Edhil with a greatness not seen in the Noldor’s leaders since Finrod. 

 

Sometimes I think Galadriel is a little insane. She, so far as I have read, never faced Fëanor alone when he was in his madness, Maedhros brought him back to sanity. And when he made the Oath, all his sons were with him, and more than a few met his eyes including Fingolfin. No doubt she was there, but never said a word to him. 

 

She was one of those who helped the host of Fingolfin cross the Ice, but Fingolfin and Fingon were foremost. As for Ost- in-Edhil. She ruled it for a time, but no more greatly than any noble, and lit out as soon as it became plain people were not taking much notice of her. 

I have come to hate her almost as much as Irimë for how she treated Gil-galad, how she acted with Fingon and how she stole Nenya from Maglor and put him in a coma for years. She really does seem just a step from evil, and just as well she never had much power as I think it would have gone very badly. 

I was re-reading this, and had to stare at her self-aggrandisement — all her apparent achievements, when she did nothing very much! Grrr. 



Author's Response:

Ah, yes, Galadriel is pretty delusional when it comes to herself.  I think her view of herself is pretty much pivotal in all her worst mistakes.  She sees herself as the hero, as one of the good guys, and all her actions as justified.  It is her very inability to face her own mistakes that has led her to where she is now: alone with nothing but power and a fractured marriage.  It was her inability to admit what she had done that made Gil-galad shut her out of his life.  He could have forgiven her, if she had just repented and taken the first steps towards change.  Gil-galad knows, from personal experience, what it is like to make mistakes, but he, unlike her, choose to change and try to make amends.

Unless Galadriel admits what she did was wrong, and stops lying to herself, then she will remain as she is forever.  It won’t be easy to admit to herself that she has done terrible things.  It’s not easy to look at oneself in the mirror.

I have come to hate her almost as much as Irimë for how she treated Gil-galad, how she acted with Fingon and how she stole Nenya from Maglor and put him in a coma for years. She really does seem just a step from evil, and just as well she never had much power as I think it would have gone very badly.”

I am glad the writing could inspire such strong emotions in you! 

Personally, I don’t think she’s as bad as Irime, but, to me, there really is nothing worse than a parent abusing their child.  

I guess I feel like she could have been so much more.  I feel like this when thinking about cannon Galadriel too.  While she has important roles to play in the Third Age, what did she do of significance before that?  She spent the entirety of the First Age in Doriath!  And then, fled east!  She could have been a cool character, but instead I am left feeling about her similarly to how I do about Luthian: potential wasted.  Neither of them did much of anything to help in the war against Morgoth.  Maybe there was something in the water in Doriath lol

Thank you so much for reviewing!  When thinking about your review, you got me pondering Galadriel again.  I had been putting off working out how she changed during the Third Age, and to what extent she did.  There are a lot of questions to be answer when we see her sail to Valinor! 



Name: kasura (Signed) · Date: July 14, 2018 0:59 · For: Chapter 57
The Silmaril back in Maglor's keeping got me thinking of when Olorin and Curumo arriving in ME, do their collars got removed by the jewel? I am assuming Earendil told Maglor that Curumo was part of the rebellion- since he helped to impersonate Earendil - so maybe when Curumo is in ME, Maglor uses his Silmaril to remove the collar? Maybe Celebrimbor's ring is just as powerful as a Silmaril so when Olorin put on Narya his collar just went off?

So if Curumo's collar got taken off by Maglor's Silmaril, that would make his decision to cleave to Sauron later more interesting...

Can you see I am soooooo curious about Curumo lol I think he's the most intriguing Istari...certainly more interesting than Olorin. He can't just one day pop out and say I am evil :)

I do hope someday you get to write about Maglor's recovery! :D

Author's Response:

“The Silmaril back in Maglor's keeping got me thinking of when Olorin and Curumo arriving in ME, do their collars got removed by the jewel? I am assuming Earendil told Maglor that Curumo was part of the rebellion- since he helped to impersonate Earendil - so maybe when Curumo is in ME, Maglor uses his Silmaril to remove the collar?”

Sorry this wasn’t very clear in the story!  I am thinking that Eönwë wouldn’t have gotten Curumo to help him with Eariendil’s impersonation if he hadn’t already broken the Valar’s bindings with the Silmaril, or else Curumo couldn’t have been trusted.  All 5 of the wizards were Maiar who were caught in the resistance, so they already had their bindings broken –which means Eönwë must have found a way to expose them to the Silmaril at some point.

Curumo is an interesting one, and you have me thinking more about what his motivations for searching for the Ring were.  If he’d still been bound to the Valar, he could have been looking for freedom or been forced by the Valar to try and find the Ring for them (not sure why they’d need it unless their Power is really being crippled by the whole fading thing), but as he’s already free, I can see him walking a similar path to Boromir.  He knows their fight against the Valar is near hopeless.  Many of his fellow Maiar have been destroyed by the Valar for daring to rebel, Eönwë is alone of the Maiar left holding the line.  He has fallen into despair, and can no longer see how they can hope to defeat their enemy with the powers they now have.  And so he reaches out to the Ring, motivated by a desire to do good, but, of course, the Ring has only the power to destroy.

Or maybe his motivations are nothing so altruistic.  Maybe he has become bitter during their long fight, and disillusioned.  Maybe he seeks the Ring not to help the resistance, but with the purpose of using it to save himself.  Maybe he intents to flee the bound of Arda and go somewhere he believes the Valar will never follow and set up a world of his own.  He is one of Alue’s servants, and the desire to create is strong in them.



Name: Spiced Wine (Signed) · Date: June 30, 2018 21:17 · For: Chapter 57
OMG I just read this in your previous responses : Sauron: Yeah, I am playing with the idea of him joining up with the Elves against the Valar. He is defiantly going to have a hard time of convincing them to let him help and that he’s not playing to stab them in the back…tho maybe he will be lol But he’s going to see them/the defeat of the Valar as his best chance at survival, and he’s defiantly a survivor.

Are you REALLY? Because he is such a superb villain as you write him, I would be sorry to see the back of him and would love to see Celebrimbor confront him again. That would be beyond incredible! And he does have much to repay the Valar for!

Author's Response:

I am not sure how it will look or when he will enter the scene, but yes, I too think he would make a wonderful addition!  And Celebrimbor deserves to face him again.  Tho how Sauron will survive that reunion….lol



Name: Spiced Wine (Signed) · Date: June 30, 2018 16:33 · For: Chapter 57
That was a magnificent and awesome last chapter, so tragic, as we knew it must be, but somehow, they climbed over that to have some hope, finding the Silmaril and Maglor’s recovery. I think it is fine to end it there, really, you could always write about his recovery in flashbacks if you wanted to.

I honestly cannot thank you enough for this whole series. It has been something to come to and relish with every emotion in the book, both when things are dark and simply when I want to read *the* series, the best series in the Silmarillion fandom bar none, the one that always should have been written, that I seem to have been waiting for since first reading the Silmarillion in 1986.

Author's Response:

I feel like hope, and the struggle to hold on to it, really was the main theme of Vengeance 2.  I needed there to be that last light of hope, even after Gil-galad’s death, so ending it on Maglor’s awakening, even without his memories, seemed right.  I am glad it worked! 

Thinking about these last Elves and everything they have struggled tho, the despair and the way they have managed to cling to their estel, makes such a contrast when thinking about the Valinor chapters.  Even in the middle of their grief, after a decades long war, after burring almost every one they have ever loved, they still burn.

“I honestly cannot thank you enough for this whole series. It has been something to come to and relish with every emotion in the book, both when things are dark and simply when I want to read *the* series, the best series in the Silmarillion fandom bar none, the one that always should have been written, that I seem to have been waiting for since first reading the Silmarillion in 1986.

This is such an amazing complement, thank you!  I will never be able to express my gratitude enough towards you.  You have been here since the very beginning.  I still remember how ecstatic I was to get a review from you on my first voyage into fan fiction as you were an author I so admired.  There were so many times I didn’t think I had it in me to finish the story.  I remember so time around the end of the Price of Duty I didn’t write a word for more than a year, and seriously thought I would never come back, I was such a dark place, but then you reached out to me, letting me know you were still there and still interested in the story, and it gave me the support I needed to come back.  Thank you a thousand times over, my dear friend :hugs:



Name: kasura (Signed) · Date: June 07, 2018 2:21 · For: Chapter 56
"But her mental illness is the only thing keeping her there in the beginning. I actually have a plan for why it is that her bipolar became so crippling around the time she sought Celegorm out, and never really released her from its relentless grip after. The full story is yet to be revealed :)"

Will be so looking forward to reading more Aredhel stories!!! She's so passionate, fascinating, rebellious and tragic as a canon female character. Most canon women are just too goody 2 shoes or sanctified for me :P.

"I think either she does truly change by that point (end of 3rd she has lost both her children, so maybe?), or there is another reason she finds the strength to refuse."

Yes, I think you have a good point. Having Gil-galad and Celebrian died prob broke and traumatized her enough to make her change, to help her look at her own failings. And regarding Celeborn, I don't think he will be able to respect her as a person after finding out how she's Gil Galad's birth mother...I am not sure if they can ever repair their marital relationship, so I do see Celeborn stay put in ME, separated but maybe able to have a cordial acquaintance relationship later if Nolor decides to relocate back to ME after rebirth.

" was undecided on Carathir/Curufin or Curufin/Finrod for a long time, but my mind is fully set on Caranthir/Curufin for end game now."

Yayyyy cheers, bring out the fireworks!!! :)

But now I have this image of Curufin, Celegorm, Feanor and twins distressing over missing Caranthir in Mandos!!! cries. I mean they prob never thought of Caranthir not showing up, since they knew Caranthir died.....

"getting to think about the story again :)"

Thank you for keep writing these wonderful stories...I look forward to reading more :D

Author's Response:

Yes, I think you have a good point. Having Gil-galad and Celebrian died prob broke and traumatized her enough to make her change, to help her look at her own failings.

I hope so.  Because otherwise she found a way to blame everyone else for her ruining her relationship with both of them :(  I do wonder tho if Celebrian was eventually able to form a relationship with Galadriel?  Celebrain is a forgiving person, and she has those childhood memories of her mother, some of which were good, that Gil-galad does not have.  Or maybe it wasn’t forgiveness, maybe it was reaching out to someone she thought she could save and trying to open Galadreil’s eyes?  Maybe it really was Celebrain’s patient efforts that caused Galadrel to change slowly.

But now I have this image of Curufin, Celegorm, Feanor and twins distressing over missing Caranthir in Mandos!!! cries. I mean they prob never thought of Caranthir not showing up, since they knew Caranthir died....”

Mandos is a horrible place.  While some of the dead are together, others are separated (Feanor is completely isolated :cries:).  And then for Caranthir not to show up….his brothers must be going mad worrying about him and their father and what their fates are…..but I’m not sure any of them are going to remember their time in the halls.  Can the mind handle what it would be like to be dead and bodiless?  The spirit’s experience of the world is so different from its time with a body…but Elves do seem to get more powerful after death (Glorfindel), so many their subconscious remember something of what it was like to be naked spirit.

Thank you for keep writing these wonderful stories...I look forward to reading more :D

Thank you for continuing to encourage me!!!

0

Thank you for letting me know you still enjoyed the story!  It’s a great complement to know you came back to the story for a second read, t am so happy to hear it :grins:

You described Feanor and Fingolfin’s progression so well.  Poor Fingolfin, lonely adulthood sums it up, that and depression, which only got worse after Feanor’s death and eventually lead to his suicide by Morgoth :(

BUT there stories are not over yet!  I don’t think I could handle it if they were never reborn!

I still want to finish this series, tho I am not writing right now, but I am so close to the end of this decade-long work I can’t give up now lol

Thank you again so much for letting me know you are still enjoying the story :)



Name: kasura (Signed) · Date: May 26, 2018 5:45 · For: Chapter 56
Thanks! It was more than 2 years of no fun for me in a very contentious environment, so hopefully the next job is better! :)

"I found it interesting that you say Aredhel has less of a presence in this version. The way I portrayed her before had bothered me for some time, because I felt like I was laying the blame for what happened on her character. I have come to really like Aredhel's character, and wanted to get into her head. But it seems I missed the mark there, but that happens sometimes. Things I hope to come through in the story don't always work, and sometimes readers pick up other things I hadn't even noticed in the writing and point them out. I love it when readers see things in the story/characters I hadn't. It's like the characters never stop revealing themselves little by little, like getting to know a person. You think you know them, but then they do or say something you hadn't seen coming!"

Aredhel is one of the more complex canon females, which is why I like her, plus Miriel and Nerdanel. And you have done a great job with Aredhel in either versions. To me the older version has her more angry at being trapped, more cause to use Maeglin to antagonize Eol, because Eol is indeed her jailer. And it also shows her ruthless side. I think in the new version there's truly no reason she couldn't leave the forest besides her own mental issues and the unwillingness to face her own perceived failures. I felt like she sorta just let her mental illness dictating her life, not bother to fight because it's easier. But I still enjoy reading her story....kudos for writing a complex Aredhel! She's never one dimensional and boring.

"Galadriel has really hit the bottom of the barrel when she stole Maglor's ring. She has lost herself to power, and her self-righteous belief that she will do things so much better than anyone else. I am not sure if she can came back from this, since she has twisted everything in her head so much to make herself seem like the good person in her eyes. In order to change and grow into someone else, she would have to face who she has become, and I am not sure she has the strength to do that."

Would be very interested to see how she said no to Frodo offering her the One Ring, because it's the ultimate power and recognition she sought for so long. With her warping all the wrongs to justify her actions and remove all the blames from herself, I am sure she could come up with an excuse to take the Ring and say I am doing this to benefit ME and crush Sauron. I am also wondering if Celeborn is able to change in the long run. He's stuck in his mode, it's his grudge against the Noldor, and he's gonna carry that forever, which is prob why he stays in ME rather than going to Valinor with Galadriel. But honestly I don't care enough about these 2 to want to know if they ever will patch up and stay together in the end.

"What is Miriel up to is a good question! And one I don't fully have an answer for. She's in the halls with the dead, and certainly not happily spinning the fate of her family alongside the Valar (she is no friend of the Valar!), But I have yet to decided what to do with her character. Her and Finwe."

I do hope she gets to do something in the end. Truly I don't see her just playing a good penitent elf and be okay with the curse and tragedies and sufferings. And I agree with you, I don't think she and Finwe will be back together. I think they will drift apart because she has changed and he also has changed. With how Finwe raised his kids, I think she might have issues with that. Finwe did a lot of damage by hiding and not willing to do anything.

"I am suddenly itching to look over my notes and maybe..start writing again!!!!" Please do!!! Please do!!! squeals! And more Feanor and Feanorions please ::puppy eyes::

Now back to Caranthir/Curufin/Finrod debate. After reading Secret Language Brother I am thinking is Finrod a substitute because of Caranthir shutting Curufin out? And because with Curufin not believe he deserves love after letting his father down by running to save his son, and Caranthir's rejection and Feanor's death reinforcing that belief, he's switching to Finrod as a substitute and punishment because he subconsciously think Finrod won't love him...? Because of these details I am full on Caranthir/Curufin ship :) Ouch I just remember Caranthir not in Mandos to explain and sort this mess with Curufin. OMG Curufin still believes Caranthir hates him while stuck in Mandos. That's horrible. I am sooo looking forward to reading Caranthir as a wandering spirit. Will Maglor be able to talk to him after the Silmaril was regained from Sauron?

With Sauron I don't see him going away after his Ring was destroyed. He will be greatly diminished, and with him being diminished he might realize the only way to freedom is help the elves with their rebellion. I think he will be terrified of being dragged to Mandos to be locked up forever.

Author's Response:

To me the older version has her more angry at being trapped, more cause to use Maeglin to antagonize Eol, because Eol is indeed her jailer. And it also shows her ruthless side. I think in the new version there's truly no reason she couldn't leave the forest besides her own mental issues and the unwillingness to face her own perceived failures. I felt like she sorta just let her mental illness dictating her life, not bother to fight because it's easier.”

Yes, yes I can see what you mean.  In this new version, while she tried to get Maeglin to see the Noldor as superior to the Green-Elves, she didn’t try to use him against Eol as a weapon, or really do half as much to intentionally sabotage his relationship with Eol.  And your right that before she reveals her hand to Eol and he becomes her jailor in truth, she could have left at any time…or at least she believed she could have.  Eol was never going to let her leave with Maeglin, so she would have either had to leave her son with the knowledge that she would probably never see him again, or she had to stay in a place she was miserable.  But her mental illness is the only thing keeping her there in the beginning.  I actually have a plan for why it is that her bipolar became so crippling around the time she sought Celegorm out, and never really released her from its relentless grip after.  The full story is yet to be revealed :)

“Would be very interested to see how she said no to Frodo offering her the One Ring, because it's the ultimate power and recognition she sought for so long. With her warping all the wrongs to justify her actions and remove all the blames from herself, I am sure she could come up with an excuse to take the Ring and say I am doing this to benefit ME and crush Sauron.”

I think either she does truly change by that point (end of 3rd she has lost both her children, so maybe?), or there is another reason she finds the strength to refuse.  She is not an idiot, so she knows how unbreakably the Ring is tied to Sauron.  It is a part of Suaron.  I wonder if knowing that it is a part of Sauron addend just end repulsion for her to resist?  Suaron is the reason her most loved are dead: Finrod, Gil-galad, and Celebrain (I think it was Sauron’s rise in Mirkwood that led to Celebrain’s capture?).

“But honestly I don't care enough about these 2 to want to know if they ever will patch up and stay together in the end.”

:snorts:  Yep, they are not on my top list on interests either.  And I think you are spot on about Celeborn: he never releases his bitterness enough to sail to the ‘Noldor’ lands.  So however Galadriel and him part is how their relationship ends.

Miriel: Yeah, I’d like to do something with her too.  I have yet to explore how she really thinks about Valinor, the Valar, or what her relationship with Finwe was like after Eol never returned.  And you are right, she is not going to be OK with the way he raised any of his children.  There is a lot to explore there!

“And because with Curufin not believe he deserves love after letting his father down by running to save his son, and Caranthir's rejection and Feanor's death reinforcing that belief, he's switching to Finrod as a substitute and punishment because he subconsciously think Finrod won't love him...?”

Ooooh!  I hadn’t thought about him seeing Finrod, subconsciously, as punishment!  Not only punishment for letting Feanor down with Finwe, but blaming himself for Feanor’s death, being a bad father, bad brother, not fulfilling the Oath and reclaiming the Simirils, not killing Morgoth, pretty much Curufin blames himself for everything.  He is extremely self-hating under that superior mask of his.

I was undecided on Carathir/Curufin or Curufin/Finrod for a long time, but my mind is fully set on Caranthir/Curufin for end game now.  There is going to be so much to work through, but the two of them have that bedrock of love, though it turned inside out into hate (or did it? Did it really?), and they have walked the same path, they have born the weight of the Oath together and the Kingslaying, they have Feanor bring them together not tearing them apart like he did between Finrod and Curufin.  They have so much in common.  I think that when they can let themselves forgive and love again, it will be everything both of them needed.

“I am sooo looking forward to reading Caranthir as a wandering spirit. Will Maglor be able to talk to him after the Silmaril was regained from Sauron?

I played with the idea of Caranthir’s spirit meeting Maglor.  In fact I had a whole plot line sketched out for this, but then decided to go a different way.  You are right tho, Caranthir is not going to be there in Mandos with Curufin, or any of his family :cries:

Sauron: Yeah, I am playing with the idea of him joining up with the Elves against the Valar.  He is defiantly going to have a hard time of convincing them to let him help and that he’s not playing to stab them in the back…tho maybe he will be lol But he’s going to see them/the defeat of the Valar as his best chance at survival, and he’s defiantly a survivor.

Thank you so, so much for the discussion!  I love them, and getting to think about the story again :)  Thank you :hugs:



Name: kasura (Signed) · Date: May 19, 2018 2:03 · For: Chapter 56
Sooorrry I did't get the chance to read anything for a long long time due to my crazy work schedule and things happening in life..and now I am out of a job, I am all caught up on these wonderful updates. Just want to do a quick catchall list of my thoughts.

First is my reaction to the new Maeglin's story. Urghhh could Gondolin be any worse. The oppression and cruelty just so much worse and unimaginable than your first version - in fact is Gondolin any different from Angband at this point? and Turgon, he sunk further and became a worse person in this version. Maeglin is even more tragic in this story, since he truly wants to come back to Eol. on Maeglin/Eol I still prefer your original version because the intensity, misunderstanding and heartbreaks between Maeglin and Eol, just even more tragic, and his conflict of caught between 2 cultures when he's growing up even more vivid ...I dunno, I guess I just like Eol suffering more :P I also feel Aredhel has less presence in this version. But I did enjoy reading the new version while appalled by how corrupted Gondolin is.

Sauron/Celebrimbor - don't even get me started...we all know it's a train wreck and the whole ride starts from bad to hell. And Celebrimbor remembering Formenos event, and Curufin had to make the hard choice of saving his son or breaking his dad's trust (so he thought) I think Feanor prob will collapse and die on the spot if he saw both Finwe and Curufin lying dead...everything is just so tragic and heart wrenching.....

I love love your descriptions of the Three, so amazing, so powerful. And Galadriel...at this point she is prob the 2nd worse female character, the worse being Irime of course. All that fake righteousness back stabbing and power grabbing, and stealing Maglor's ring. Has she no Fiwion pride? She truly lost herself when she stole Maglor's ring and not giving it back to Gil-galad. Urgh can't stand her.

But you made Celebrian my fav canon Elf female in this series! She's just so strong, slowly becoming her own person despite her parents' influence, and setting her own path and owning her choice. What a contrast between mother and daughter. The suppose strong one is actually the weak one. and the quiet unassuming one is the stronger one. Celebrian is just so lovely.

Now I am really curious about Miriel, like what has she been doing all these ages besides weaving next to Vaire. I mean she's Feanor's mom, so I just don't see her quietly sit in the background and fading, and not helping Feanor a bit, especially she had thought going to Valinor was a bad idea. Hoping you would have the chance to write more about Miriel.

Thanks for continuing to write these wonderful, gut wrenching stories. I think these are what I could think for now, after rereading the new updates I missed 3 times. Not that Gildor, Glorfindel, Gil galad & Elrond are not great, but I am having some Feanor & sons withdrawal...when will we get some more on Feanor & his sons :)

Author's Response:
It's great to hear from you!  I am sorry to hear though that you have lost your job.  I hope it wasn't one you loved, and you can find something even better in the future.  

I think I must have been in Feanorion withdraw too because they kept cropping up in Glorfindel, Gildor, and Gil-galad's story lol.  I just love writing them!

It was really interesting to hear your thoughts on the revised Maeglin story line.  Now that you mentioned it, I can see what you mean about him not being as torn between his parents' cultures in this version.  He is of his father's people.  He could have really come to embrace the Noldo in him if he had lived in another place but Gondolin.  That place is like hell.  Can you tell I really, really would not have wanted to live there? lol Even just the strictly cannon Gondolin sounds awful.  So constricting and insular.  

I found it interesting that you say Aredhel has less of a presence in this version.  The way I portrayed her before had bothered me for some time, because I felt like I was laying the blame for what happened on her character.  I have come to really like Aredhel's character, and wanted to get into her head.  But it seems I missed the mark there, but that happens sometimes.  Things I hope to come through in the story don't always work, and sometimes readers pick up other things I hadn't even noticed in the writing and point them out.  I love it when readers see things in the story/characters I hadn't.  It's like the characters never stop revealing themselves little by little, like getting to know a person.  You think you know them, but then they do or say something you hadn't seen coming!

Galadriel has really hit the bottom of the barrel when she stole Maglor's ring.  She has lost herself to power, and her self-righteous belief that she will do things so much better than anyone else.  I am not sure if she can came back from this, since she has twisted everything in her head so much to make herself seem like the good person in her eyes.  In order to change and grow into someone else, she would have to face who she has become, and I am not sure she has the strength to do that.  Maybe, in Valinor, if it is Finrod who confronts her with the truth of herself, she might be able to listen and change, but I don't think she would have the ears to hear if it was anyone else saying the words.  She couldn't hear the truth even when it came from her own children's mouths.

I have grown to really love Celebrain too, so it's wonderful to hear you like her!  I can't wait for her re-birth when she meets all three of her sons again and they finally get to meet each other.  (I don't think she ever told her children with Elrond about Elmirion.  For her the grief was always too near.  She was never able to speak of him, and Elrond was always waiting for her to be the one to tell them as he didn't think it was his place).

What is Miriel up to is a good question!  And one I don't fully have an answer for.  She's in the halls with the dead, and certainly not happily spinning the fate of her family alongside the Valar (she is no friend of the Valar!),  But I have yet to decided what to do with her character.  Her and Finwe.  I'd like them to be reborn with the other Elves I think.  Their presence will cause many confrontations and complications, and then there is the kingship which I DON"T want going back to Finwe.  But complications are good!  I can see the Valar willingly giving Finwe rebirth since he was always so passive and toted their line...now what he's like after his rebirth tho might not be what they expected...hum...some ideas are forming!  I know there is going to be a mess with the kingship early on in the final installment of the series, and now I am wondering how Finwe's rebirth might tip the scales....

I am suddenly itching to look over my notes and maybe..start writing again!!!!  I haven't written anything in months, havn't been able to bring myself to even look at where I left things.  So thank you a thousand times for this review!  It has me thinking of the stories again, and maybe I will even sit down and start creating again.

Thank you so much for taking the time to read and review!!  Good luck on the job search 


Name: mangacrack (Signed) · Date: February 24, 2018 22:26 · For: Chapter 56

I think these Elves will drive me up the wall one day. 

Cause a part of me is screaming that this should not be a race of "who gets to sacrifice himself", but history kind of taught the Noldor that this is something to strive for. Besides, surviving is harding than dying. I want to give Gil-galad a good slap on the back of his head (and Gildor too), because it's Elrond who is going to pick up the mess in the end. 

but other than this ... damned stupidity, I love the wreck the Alliance is in general. It's war, there ARE no good decisions and Gil-galad IS the Highking. He does get to decide who lives and who dies, but he's too much like his grandfather like this. I wonder how much of his self-sacrifice is prompted by Fingolfin's legacy? If I were Fingolfin & watching, I'd feel guilty.

On the other hand, what are they supposed to do? The stage is set that someone is going to die and it's kind of hilarious (and sad) that Gildor, Gil-galad and Glorfindel belong to the House of Feanor, Fingolfin and Finarfin respectively. Ohh, what a mess and I absolutely love it. Because from this day on Gil-galad will remain an unresolved issue between Glorfindel and Gildor. Glorfindel will be angry that he wasn't allowed to ... well, die ... and Gildor, depending on how it's going to play out, will insist that he had to make a choice. Who could they afford to loose? Who is the better fighter? Who is more likely to shoulder the weight of responsibility in the next age? 

Though I wonder who decided that Glorfindel had to die? Who send Gil-galad these visions, because it certainly feels like it. Foresight is, at least in my opinion, either about the innermost nature of a person or about reading subtle clues or cold calculation. At this point it wouldn't surprise me if Sauron sends Gil-galad these visions of Glorfindel dying, making sure that the three G's aren't banding up on him ... or just planting the idea in Gil's head that Glorfindel CAN'T win. For this is, at least theoretically, a possibility.    

But that's another lesson they'll have to learn. 

Awesome chapter, like always. I'm curious if we get some Gil-galad POV, some explanation why he's so nasty to Glorfindel. Though I LOVE the train-wreck that is their relationship. It feels REAL, because two people hooking up with each other in a bad moment is utterly believable. 



Author's Response:
"Cause a part of me is screaming that this should not be a race of "who gets to sacrifice himself", but history kind of taught the Noldor that this is something to strive for."

Well, maybe not strive for, but something that is almost inevitable.  They keep dying, so it must seem like someone in their family is bound to die again, just looking at their history.  The price of peace is blood.  Coupled with that is Gil-galad's own personal struggle against despair (and Gildor is not immune to this either, they've been fighting this war for a decade and buried a LOT of soldiers).  

I absolutely love the idea of Sauron being the one who sent Gil-galad that vision!  When I was writing the chapter, I knew there were pieces of the puzzle I didn't know yet (as there always are , but it felt right that Gil-galad had this vision of Glorfindel dying, and that it was tormenting him, but Gil-galad does not have a history of foresight, so I didn't know why he'd started having the dreams now, only that he'd had one.  But it makes so much sense if he really did not have a moment of foresight, but that Suaron is behind it!  It makes me think of Morgoth messing around in Feanor's head when he was vulnerable.  Gil-galad has been made vulnerable too because of the drain of the Ring; it's hard for him to think clearly, and he's making poor choices because of it.  He's been ground down into the dust not only in spirit but in body, and it's starting to show.

I am not entirely sure what real foresight is either, but I do think that some people, like Elrond, truly posses it and have visions of possible futures.  I tend to think foresight is possible because of the Elves' strong connection to the Song.  But I suppose that could be them collecting all the clues around them and then using their own fears or hopes to create a vision of something that is entirely made up in their head.  That is definitely an interesting possibility, and I'd love to read a story where every time an Elf thought they'd had a moment of foresight, their minds had only been playing tricks on them.   It makes me think of Gondolin and Finrod's stories specifically which seem to have been so negatively influenced by Finrod and Idril believing they had had visions.  

Thinking about foresight and whether or not it is real, gets me thinking about Curufin.  In this story, I wrote him having a powerful gift of foresight...but I could totally see him as a character whose internal fears preyed upon his mind to such an extent he'd have vivid dreams he mistook for visions of the future. This would put what happened in Doriath in an entirely new light.  In the story, Curufin has a dream of foresight before the battle about Celegorm dying, and goes to Caranthir to get him to help keep an eye on Celegorm during the battle.  I haven't written the moment of Celegorm and Curufin's deaths, only the aftermaths, but I know what happened now: Curufin saw Celegorm dueling with Dior, and because he believes he saw Celegorm die in a vision of the future, he throws away all caution for personal safety, and exposes himself dangerously to try and reach Celegorm.  Celegorm sees Curufin in danger, maybe sees the first arrow take him, and Celegorm is distracted in his duel with worry for Curufin, thus giving Dior an opening to kill him.  Celegorm dies because he was worried for Curufin who died because he was terrified Celegorm would died.  If it was true foresight, it was like a self-furfilling prophecy.  Celegorm wouldn't have died if Curufin had not been sure he would die (there is no way in my opinion that Dior was the better swords man.  Dior had not even a 10th of Ceelgorm's experience).  I cannot believe I just made Curufin and Celegorm's deaths even MORE tragic lol

"The stage is set that someone is going to die and it's kind of hilarious (and sad) that Gildor, Gil-galad and Glorfindel belong to the House of Feanor, Fingolfin and Finarfin respectively."

I hadn't thought about how they were all descendants of Feanor, Fingolfin, and Finarfin!!!  

"Awesome chapter, like always. I'm curious if we get some Gil-galad POV, some explanation why he's so nasty to Glorfindel. Though I LOVE the train-wreck that is their relationship. It feels REAL, because two people hooking up with each other in a bad moment is utterly believable."

I am so happy that it feels real!  That is the best complement   To me, it makes sense that they would make a mess of a relationship started under these conditions, it is just horrendous timing, and yet completely natural that they would seek that human connection in a time of death and war.  

There won't be any chapters from Gil-galad's POV.  Originally, I was going to write everything from Glorfindel's, but then Gildor snuck in there.  But I wanted to leave us wondering what exactly Gil-galad is feeling/thinking so we have some things to explore once he gets reborn   Gil-galad is actually turning out to be a character that has a lot of stuff to work through once he gets reborn.  He has surprised me with some of his character developments that I didn't fully know about until I started writing this mess of a relationship with Glorfindel.  He had been hiding it lol!

Thank you so so much for the review, and taking the time to stick with the story; I cannot tell you how much it means to me every time I receive one of your reviews and know that you are still enjoying the story :)


Name: merwinem (Signed) · Date: February 23, 2018 21:40 · For: Chapter 56
Thanks for the chapter! The atmosphere of despair and hopelessness continues to grow stronger – Gil-galad’s death is coming and it’s going to be heart-breaking when it finally happens (though I don’t think you will be able to top Celebrimbor’s death).

I like how Sauron had to give up a part of himself to become more powerful. There shouldn’t be a shortcut to gaining power – you cannot get something for nothing. In a broader sense this means that the Ainur can choose to change, which makes them more human in a way, and opens up so many new possibilities. Maybe they can change not only for the worse, but also for the better? I’ve always assumed that since the Ainur are so ancient, their characters are pretty much set in stone. It’s fun to have a preconceived notion about cannon challenged – now I really want a redemption arc for at least one of the Valar… Of course, Sauron was acting alone and he didn’t have anything holding him back from doing whatever he wanted, while the Valar are loyal to Manwe. For them, siding with the rebels would be equivalent to betraying Manwe, which is unlikely to happen after everything they have been through together.

About you reply to my last review – don’t worry, it was perfectly clear from the story that Eol knew that Aredhel was Finwe’s granddaughter. What I meant to say is that she wasn’t the only descendent of Finwe in Beleriand, nor was she the best person through which Eol could have reconnected to Finwe (she had too many of her own issues). I don’t think the relationship with Aredhel was very healthy for Eol (or vice versa, for that matter). There were many other Finweions who were much better adjusted than Aredhel – I was specifically thinking that Finrod, for example, probably would have been very welcoming/good for Eol. And, of course, the Feanorions lived very close to Nan Elmoth and they were also Miriel’s descendants in addition to Finwe’s. It’s heart-breaking that there was so much dislike between them and Eol.

Thanks again! Seeing this story updated never fails to make my day better!

Author's Response:
"Gil-galad’s death is coming and it’s going to be heart-breaking when it finally happens (though I don’t think you will be able to top Celebrimbor’s death)."

Yeah, Celebrimbor's death killed me.  Everything seemed to come together in that scene.  We had the despair and the horror of it, but also the revelation of how much he'd forgotten/misunderstood about his father.  It really broke my heart!  I want Curufin and Celebrimbor to meet in rebirth again so bad!

"I like how Sauron had to give up a part of himself to become more powerful. There shouldn’t be a shortcut to gaining power – you cannot get something for nothing."

I am glad you liked that part!!  The Suaron of the Third Age is so different from who he had once been, and while some of it could be losing his body multiple times, it seemed to me that there was more to it.  The Suaron of the 3rd Age just seems a lot less cunning, and more bent on destruction and having a world of slaves.  While Sauron has always liked controlling others, and defiantly wanted the Elves under his power, I don't think Annatar envisioned a world like Mordor.  He liked beauty too much to want to inhabit a dead world.  So I think something essential much have changed about his nature.

"now I really want a redemption arc for at least one of the Valar…"

I don't know if any of the Valar will entirely throw their lot in with the Elves, but I do think that there will be times some Vala's interests ally with the Elves,' and they will aid them.  Once we get back to Valinor, I'd like to show that not all the Valar are one entirety.  While I think they can defiantly work together like a hive-mind, and they share a lot in common, each one has their own motivations and interests.  Some won't care about the Elves one way or another and want nothing to do with another war; Manwe will not be able to give up the allure of power and control; but other Vala will have reasons or their own behind their actions, and the Elves might be able to give them something they want in exchange for their help.  

"There were many other Finweions who were much better adjusted than Aredhel – I was specifically thinking that Finrod, for example, probably would have been very welcoming/good for Eol. And, of course, the Feanorions lived very close to Nan Elmoth and they were also Miriel’s descendants in addition to Finwe’s. It’s heart-breaking that there was so much dislike between them and Eol."

It is sad that Eol was never able to get over his prejudice against the Noldor and see that they were not all the same.  I wish he could have met the Feanorions specifically because they could have had such a partnership in the forge!  And I think he would have gotten on with Fingolfin and Fingon too.  And gods, Maeglin's life would have been so different.  I think it's one of the greatest tragedies of the 1st Age that those that should have been allies and friends were never able to overcome their prejudices or hatred.

"Seeing this story updated never fails to make my day better!"

Well, hearing this makes my day!!  Thank you so much for the comments, and the continued support, it means the world to me :hugs:


Name: Spiced Wine (Signed) · Date: February 18, 2018 13:03 · For: Chapter 56
This was magnificently written, so beautiful and left me with a horror, because we all know Glorfindel isn’t going to die, and whatever he said, Gil-galad is going to somehow swap himself and die instead. ;__;

He said he would not throw his life away but he would not see it like that, to save Glorfindel.
It’s all coming now, this battle, which has been one of such courage and sacrifice and blood, and the definitively written Last Alliance as fart and I am concerned. The last great battle against Sauron, and then — only hope to sustain them

Author's Response:
"This was magnificently written, so beautiful and left me with a horror, because we all know Glorfindel isn’t going to die, and whatever he said, Gil-galad is going to somehow swap himself and die instead. ;__;"

Thank you!!  Yes, knowing what's coming makes it all the more brutal.  I think at this point, Gil-galad is convinced he will die too (this is the main reason he keeps pushing Glorfindel away...only he keeps reaching out to because he can't help himself).  He's had this bit of foresight long enough he's gone through the stage where he believed they would all get out of this OK, and has entered into grime cynicism in which he can't see a way for this to end without death.  The war, but most specifically, the way the Ring has drained him has worn him down. 

"The last great battle against Sauron, and then — only hope to sustain them"

Yes, this exactly.  Hope, and a stubborn belief that they will somehow, someway, get their loved ones back.  The 3rd Age much have been one of the hardest, for all the long stretches of peace, because every day must have been a battle to not give in to despair....but, then, again, every Age had its immense struggles, they just took a different shape each time.

Thank you so much for the comment, and support!!!  I hope this finds you doing well :hugs:



Name: mangacrack (Signed) · Date: February 11, 2018 13:19 · For: Chapter 55

As for Sauron ... I think it really depends if his "survival" is made public. No matter what state he's in, too many people would call for his execution or a permanent solution, if they knew Sauron is still around. Which I can understand. But even IF Vala & Maia can be killed, which bears an interesting question in and itself, it'd just prove Sauron right. It's what HE would've done. What SHOULD happen is that he's forced to do what he was too afraid to the last time. Face is mistakes. Cause he won't find rest until the day he does. It must burn in the back of Sauron's mind ... the person he was under Morgoth vs the person ... he could've been? The person he once was? 

It's not like he can run from that, which makes me wonder what kind of mess is head is in. Is "Sauron" a construct? Something he kept alive after discovering what he became? Perhaps I'm just too much in love with the multiple personalities, but with beings that live that long it's kind of a given. They MUST deal with the longlivety somehow. They don't experience the years any differently than humans. (well, maia perhaps?) 

Which brings me back to the point of Maia/Vala can be killed. Not physically perhaps, but their identity?

What does Feanor DO if he realizes that he CANT get rid of the Vala? Turn them into people like them? "Kill" the previous incarnations, raise the new powers as "Children of the Vala" and hope they will be better? It could be like one big time loop, figuring out what to do with the gods. Cause maybe the Elves manage to lock the Valar away and wake up one day in the 7th Age to be faced with multiple Morgoth'ses ... cause the Vala all went mad? 

Personally I like the idea of the Valar needing human/elvish vessels of some kind on Arda anyway. Cause the idea that they can just wipe up a temporary body is just wrong in my eyes.



Author's Response:
"As for Sauron ... I think it really depends if his "survival" is made public. No matter what state he's in, too many people would call for his execution or a permanent solution, if they knew Sauron is still around."

This is true...he is going to have to give them a reason to keep him alive, since I too want to see him deal with facing what he ran from before.  Tho, he might be such a mess trying to grapple with the guilt and self-hate that he thinks they should kill him (another out for him).  So maybe it will have to be someone -like Feanor or even Celebrimbor-- who makes the argument of how he can help them.  I imagine Celebrimbor visiting him in the cell they are holding him in, and listening to Sauron's apologies and arguments to be killed without an ounce of mercy, then telling him to stop trying to run away, and if he was REALLY sorry, he should DO something to help them rather than just bemoan his fall.

"Which brings me back to the point of Maia/Vala can be killed. Not physically perhaps, but their identity? 

What does Feanor DO if he realizes that he CANT get rid of the Vala? Turn them into people like them? "Kill" the previous incarnations, raise the new powers as "Children of the Vala" and hope they will be better? It could be like one big time loop, figuring out what to do with the gods. Cause maybe the Elves manage to lock the Valar away and wake up one day in the 7th Age to be faced with multiple Morgoth'ses ... cause the Vala all went mad?"

Now this is really fascinating!  I agree that the Valar can never be fully wiped from existence.  They are not people really, rather a concept/ thought made flesh.  Some part of themselves will always linger on.  I wonder about this idea of their identity being destroyed....tho if their minds don't work like human minds, are they really what they perceived themselves to be, or are their natures as unchangeable as the wind/fire/ whatever thought they were formed from?  Is it inevitably that even 'reborn' with a new identity, they will always fall down the same path?  They lack human empathy (in my verse), and without that to balance them, will they always crave to control the world and the Children within it?

This has really got me thinking!  I appreciate the discussion so much :hugs:


Name: mangacrack (Signed) · Date: February 11, 2018 12:01 · For: Chapter 55
"Lothlorien is pretty much the garden's of Lorien 2.0, Thranduil's halls are often compared to Menegroth 2."

Yes, exactly. It irritates me to no end that the Elves never spread out more? Arda is certainly bigger than the maps we're shown. My headcanon is that Maglor said 'Fuck it' after the War of Wrath and just explored Middle Earth, feeling that he owed it to his family. Cause they wanted to leave Valinor long before Melkor came around. So my guess it that the Feanorians would've left Aman sooner or later. They'd have built cities, met people and moved on again because Celegorm heard of an animal with a re~ally long neck or because Ambarussa wants to ride Elephants. 


(Just to think they have been ROBBED this ... in more than one way, because that kind of heritage of Feanor DOESN'T live on.) 


"The idea of Maedhros trying to find allies in even the Orcs is fascinating. "
Maedhros would probably know the differences between Orcs. I bet there're groups, like the Elves have Teleri/Vanya/Noldor etc. He learned their language, can spot which ones are tribes and which ones are throughly under Morgoth and/or Sauron's thumb. Which ones are ruled by Queens and which are just groups of bullies... side note: why are there no female orcs??? perhaps because they're still a franction elvish and females don't live long enough? perhaps orc women are either little more than animals, given birth to entire litters or they're almost elf-women ... just very different and corrupt and stay beneath the earth, because they're too precious/valuable to be bother themselves with the sun? ... 

Galadriel ... well, she's someone who lived long enough to make mistakes. I doubt someone like Finrod would've fared better. In fact, I always entertained the idea that Galadriel was the last one standing, because she was the slowest to corrupt. Not exactly what you would call a good person, but too stubborn to succumb to Melkor&Sauron (canon wise). Even if her motive is just ambition, but if you live long enough you either end up feeling nothing or you have to give your sympathy to someone. I mean, Oropher and Amdir died in the Last Alliance. Amroth dies as well, after the Balrog takes over KhazadDum and I always wondered about that. 

If that was some kind of turning point to her. Cause Amroth ran away with Nimrodel and left his people. Cause the way I understand it he was still King of Lothlorien until that point. 

" So Gil-galad spends years wandering around with no memory of who he is.  "

DON'T PUT IDEAS INTO MY HEAD! *points at the small draft and the tons of ideas collected over the last days* 

but it does make sense, in a way. we have the dead marches and it's up to debate if the Elves there are truly "dead" ... or trapped in a state somewhere in between. but the idea is awesome, i knew the version/last line existed, but i kind of forgot what it implies. but i've an idea how to use this ... one day, when my insane!Maglor verse reaches the 3rd age. 

but I like any version of the dead coming back to live that doesn't involve people walking out of Mandos. Elves are bound to Arda, there must be other ways ... cause I can't believe that Eru intended Elves depending on the Valar for that part forever. Unless you go by the version, where Elves are the "First Draft" and Men the Second, because Eru realizes that Elves as a race won't work out in the long run?  





Author's Response:

 

"So my guess it that the Feanorians would've left Aman sooner or later. They'd have built cities, met people and moved on again because Celegorm heard of an animal with a re~ally long neck or because Ambarussa wants to ride Elephants."

Hahaha I really like this idea!  Yeah, I can totally see them as explorers, always hunger to see what's over the next mountain range.  But also experimenting with city building and ruling when they come to a place they like.  It is terrible to think about how their lives were shadowed by war, stunted even because so much of who they were was consumed by the war and the Oath.

"Maedhros would probably know the differences between Orcs. I bet there're groups, like the Elves have Teleri/Vanya/Noldor etc. He learned their language, can spot which ones are tribes and which ones are throughly under Morgoth and/or Sauron's thumb. Which ones are ruled by Queens and which are just groups of bullies... side note: why are there no female orcs??? perhaps because they're still a franction elvish and females don't live long enough? perhaps orc women are either little more than animals, given birth to entire litters or they're almost elf-women ... just very different and corrupt and stay beneath the earth, because they're too precious/valuable to be bother themselves with the sun? ..."

I had never given much thought to different factions of Orcs before, but the idea of different tribes of Orcs is really fascinating!  They has to have been a lot of internal conflicts going on.  I wonder if they had grudges that lasted centuries and passed down from one generation to the next....or did they have a concept of generations if they never had anything like a family unit?  Maybe they never had tribes at all if they were all out for themselves?  But in lotr when Merry and Pippin were captured, we saw that the Orcs were at least divided on the lines of where they were posted and who they served. 

"Galadriel ... well, she's someone who lived long enough to make mistakes. I doubt someone like Finrod would've fared better."

Finrod and Galadreil seem to have had similar aspiration's when they left Valinor.  They both wanted to explore and to rule.  Finrod was able to see his wish fulfilled in the 1st Age, where Galadreil was not.  And he learned the bitter taste of being betrayed by his own people, as well as learning that he could not be both king and explorer.  We don't know much about the opinions of the native Endor Elves who lived in his lands before he set up his kingdom.  Were they happy to welcome the Noldor, or did they resent them?  But then, we don't know how the native pops in Fingolfin or the Feanorion's lands felt either.  I lean towards them being overall welcoming because they were being preyed upon by Morgoth before the Noldor's coming.  Thingol wasn't doing anything to protect the lands and people he claimed were his.  I wonder if they were resentful of that, and of the way Thingol just handed their lands over to the Nodlor (without consulting them?).  If the Noldor 'stole' the land in these Elves' opinions, it was as much Thingol's fault for giving it to them as the Noldor's for accepting the land and the terms of alliance without consulting the Elves already living there either.  But then, the Noldor had arrived in a foreign land whose politics they did not fully understand.  If they assumed Thingol had the right to give the land but he didn't because the Elves living there no longer considered Thingol their king, then that would have been a poorly researched decision but not one made out of malice or a sense of superiority.  However, I can see how the Noldor's actions might have fed the fire of the native populace's feelings that the Noldor thought themselves superior (no doubt many Noldor did, which did not help relations).

As for Galadriel, sometimes I feel like she didn't learn any of the lessons the other Noldor did in the First Age because she lived in Doriath.  She was safe within the Girdle, but it is like her character didn't grown while she was sequestered there.  So she come into the 2nd Age with a lot of the ideas the Noldor had once held in the beginning of the first, with her thirst for rule unsaited.  So, while I think Finrod would have long learned better than to go into a foreign land (Lorien) and try to take over the culture/ 'teach' the native Elves, Galadreil was still stuck in the mind-set that had led to a lot of the Noldor's mistakes in the 1st Age.

"but I like any version of the dead coming back to live that doesn't involve people walking out of Mandos. Elves are bound to Arda, there must be other ways ... cause I can't believe that Eru intended Elves depending on the Valar for that part forever."

I agree.  I'm planning on writing this into the story when we start getting to re-brith, but yeah, I definitely think Elves have the ability to create their own bodies independent of the Valar.  It is a corruption of the Song that Mandos has a pull/compultion on Elven souls, trying to lure them into his halls.  I think for some reason (haven't figured out why) for the Elves who lived in Valinor fighting the call to Mandos is extremely hard.  A lot of the Exiles know the Valar are not benevolent, and yet they end up in the Halls anyway.  Some of that is also because they don't fight the call as hard as they could when they hope they will find their dead loved ones waiting for them.  Like Celebrimbor, he didn't fight at all.  He wanted to end up in Mandos and be reunited with the dead.

Thank you so much for the continued discussion!  I needed it; it keeps me focused on the writing   Thank you!



Name: mangacrack (Signed) · Date: February 06, 2018 13:54 · For: Chapter 55

Now, I need to get this off my chest or else I'll go crazy if I have to wait until Sunday to write this down. While I read and acknowledged the part of Sauron's freedom before, it just hit me like a brick. He straight walked by his own redemption! I can understand why he didn't but that's exactly the reason why there's hope for him. 
In a way. He'll always be accountable for his crimes and the Eldar will always see him as an enemy, but given the possibility that Sauron doesn't "die" after the second Ring War ... what happens then? Letting him remain evil is exactly what he doesn't deserve. He SHOULD face his own consciousness  kicking and screaming if it's needed. he fucking deserves to be plagued by his own guilt. 
The question is also ... do the Eldar NEED a Sauron to go against the Valar? It could be the Enemy of my Enemy thing, ... and I do expect that the War against the False Gods will take AT LEAST another age. Or three. 
I'm currently imaging a Sauron without memories, after the ring got destroyed. Clueless, helpless (regarding emotions etc.) and he's confronted by ... don't know ... spirit Celebrimbor? Maglor & Glorfindel, who intended to finish him off but realize that they could use this opportunity? 
The Eldar struggle with the concept of appropriate  punishment and Sauron is a case, where they could grow to be better than the Valar. Cause the whole mess started with locking Melkor into solitary confinement, turning into this mad, irredeemable god who yet should be more pitied than hated. but that's my opinion, the Valar are like children. DO they understand they own crimes or are they cruel because they're ignorant? 
I NEVER wanted to write Sauron before, but now ... ARGH! I've always seen him as the person who CHOSE evil more or less turning from being the embodiment of Awe (Mairon) to shock&terror (Sauron). But as immortal people the Eldar have a different concept of punishment. How do they respond to those who steal, rape and murder? If they're punished / exiled / branded ... is it everlasting? 

... god, let me tell you I MISSED YOU. I've been sitting over the next chapter for "World breaks Everyone" for weeks and then you come and my muse is back with a vengeance.    
*digs up story ideas* 
by the way ... do have a clue which chapter(s) deal with Maeglin&Tuor in Book I? I'm afraid that'll get sucked into re-reading BOTH books if I start searching on my own. Cause there's a story coming up that's heavily inspired a specific scene and the dynamic between them in general.  



Author's Response:

I seriously like this idea for Sauron!!!  I hadn't thought to bring him back after his destruction in the 3rd Age, but I love love love the thought of him having to deal with everything he did with his empathy returned!!!  I even think he should have all his memories so that he KNOWS exactly what he did, and he knows that he could have stopped himself when he came into contact with the Silmaril, but he was too weak to face what he had done.  I just love this idea!!!  I have missed our discussions soooo much too!  You have such wonderful ideas!  Thank you :hugs:

Elven punishments is something I've wondered about a lot myself.  I have them mostly punishing by ostentation /Shaming/outcast from people.  But I do think that they leave room for redemption, like with what happened during the Price of Duty, one of the OC characters was outcast, but was able to return to society after he helped save Erestor's life, though I imagine his crime always hung over him in the eyes of most people.  I have always been thinking about this in regards to the Reborn.  Some people are going to want to demand punishment for past crimes, some other people might think death was punishment enough, but what if death changed nothing/they learned nothing from death? (thinking of Noldor from Gondolin here, or other Elves who committed atrocities...also, a lot of people like the Teleri are not going to be OK with the Feanorions and their follows receiving no punishment -or they don't think death is punishment enough).
 
"I NEVER wanted to write Sauron before, but now ... ARGH! I've always seen him as the person who CHOSE evil more or less turning from being the embodiment of Awe (Mairon) to shock&terror (Sauron)."

I was actually a bit hesitant about taking away some of Sauron's choice in becoming what he became because of the collars.  It feels like giving him an out.  I usually see him like you do, someone who knowingly choose to follow Morgoth, maybe not for love, maybe he even knew what he was doing was wrong, but something motivated him to choose Morgoth anyway.  That is why I liked the idea of him having that moment with the Silmairl so much.  He has already done a ton of terrible things at that point, but some of his worst deeds were yet to come.  He had the choice then to change himself, to step off of the path he was on.  But he didn't.  He knowingly choose to continue being what he was because it was too hard/horrifying for him to face what he had became.  And that is on him.  That was wholly his own choice that he cannot blame on anyone but himself.

It is so so wonderful to hear you have been inspired to write because of this story!!  I am happy for you :)  Happy writing!!

"by the way ... do have a clue which chapter(s) deal with Maeglin&Tuor in Book I? I'm afraid that'll get sucked into re-reading BOTH books if I start searching on my own. Cause there's a story coming up that's heavily inspired a specific scene and the dynamic between them in general."

I should let you know that when I re-wrote Maeglin's story I cut a few of his scenes with Tuor.  He only interacts with Tuor in chapter 43 (Tuor has a POV part in I Remember Everything).   If what you are looking for is not there, let me know and I will dig around and see if I saved the writing I cut anywhere.  I have a tendency to save things, as it's really hard to just delete writing.   So I probably have it hanging around in some word doc.

Thank you so so much for the continued discussion!!!  I love the idea of Suaron turning up again, thank you for sharing it with me :hugs:


Name: mangacrack (Signed) · Date: February 05, 2018 18:28 · For: Chapter 55

I love your points about the 2nd age and how it differs from the 3rd and the Ring War. But that just reinforces my opinion that Feanor needs to be the Highking. Or a Feanorian in general. Less because he's Finwe's oldest son, but because he's creative. The Feanorians can look at a situation and look past the usual solutions, redefine reality by questioning boundaries. Feanor is the type to invent planes in order to fight dragons. His sons also might look at Orcs / Dwarves / Humans and see potential allies, instead of just enemies. 

Cause I bet that Maedhros especially wondered if it's possible to save the Orcs. As a race, even if they have to start with a fraction and raise them themselves. Not much at first, but it would make a huge difference in the long run. With Arda, every evil thing comes back to Melkor one way or another. Thus the question how the world would've looked like, had he not existed.

and as creators the Feanorians strife to be better, reach for the impossible instead remaining content with what they have.

Feanor/Curufin&Celebrimbor are the type of explorers who can get excited over a bunch of rocks / minerals. Who invent something outragous, because their either a) need it or b) they were bored.

It's something the Sindar never managed, thanks to Melians&Thingol "it's good as it is" mentality. Ambition among the Sindar is probably still seen as dangerous, which makes me wonder how Galadriel fares. I imagine she's pretty isolated. She's not the type to have close friends and without Celeborn ... well. I hope we get glimpses from their life, if not a full redemption arc. Though I still think that Galadriel at least deserves a chance to ... be better. 

But I admit that I've been influenced early on through this picture ... it doesn't matter that it's cate blanchett dressed as galadriel, I love the exhaustion in the pose. Worn. Not quite hopeless but realitic pessimistic. (as far as I remember it's from The Hobbit set). As for her faults ... I don't think that Morgoth took a special interest in her, aside from the three hairs issue, but she fell for the false ideologies he spread? Perhaps it stings as well that Morgoth DIDN'T take interest in her and Galadriel realizes that her faults are entirely her own?

But Elves don't know how to react to such events properly. In a way, they're still a young race and the mortal children are far wiser than they're. They ARE living without ever dying and thus they're robbed of the knowledge that it will be too late one day. If you tell a human that he has only three months left to live, he'll most likely do all the stuff he always put aside for later.

Elves on the other hand could drown in a puddle from complacency.

Hence how everyone around Elrond and Galadriel keeps falling, crumbling (especially at the end of the 3rd age). Even if they realize the value of true teamwork, the fellowship is better than any of them by default. Though I believe that Elrohir and Elladan set an example in Imladris, by bascially stating (not swearing!) the fact that they'd stay together NO MATTER what happens. But this perhaps just by opinion on the possebility of one twin chosing immortality and one becoming human ... which ... nope. Not for those two.

As opposite I always imagine that Oropher&Gil-galad stuck around as ghosts and got to watch their grandchildren (more or less in G.'s case) fight together at the gates of Mordor and only THEN they realize that innocent people suffer from their mistakes and still stand up to make the world a better place.

 

... I hope you don't mind my headcanoning. It's been a while and I missed our discussions!

 

 

 



Author's Response:
I missed our discussions too!  And I always enjoy hearing your headcannons, they never fail to be fascinating :)


I totally agree with you that the Feanorions are, in a lot of ways, a different breed of Elf.  They have the vision and passion for innovation that we don't see in many other Elves.  Especially when thinking about Elves of the 3rd Age who seem to be stuck on re-building what came before (Lothlorien is pretty much the garden's of Lorien 2.0, Thranduil's halls are often compared to Menegroth 2.0, and I always get the feeling that Imladris is heavily caught in dwelling in the past).  Of course, we see this in the 1st Age too in Gondolin who tried to build a second Tirion rather than aim for something new.  I often wonder what Feanor's sons all caught have brought into the world if most of their lives had not been consumed by the war and Oath.  Especially Curufin.  We know next to nothing about what his artistic or technological achievements were, but surely he came close to Feanor and Celebrimbor, and yet all his potential was sucked up into the war and the Oath.


The idea of Maedhros trying to find allies in even the Orcs is fascinating.  I think either he was the one who could see that their was still a glimmer of hope for saving Orcs, or he was the one who hated them the most and knew they would never be anything but monsters.  It all depends on what he witnessed in Angband.  Also, it would depend on how much the Orcs participated in his torture.  It would be incredibly hard to overcome what they did to him even to see that they were not wholly evil if he had been made their plaything.


I totally agree that the Sindarian society does not have a positive view of ambition.  They strike me as a people who cultivate the idea of being satisfied with what you have.  I, personally, headcannon that Doriath was a strict, class society. with little upward mobility  I think the higher classes impressed upon the lower classes that they needed to be content with their lot in life and not strive for anything better. It kept the ruling class in power.


Galadriel - I can totally see her as worn down, quite possibly changed, by the end of the Third Age.  It will be interesting to see how her character changed when she renters the story in Valinor.  Will she be ready to give up the Ring?  Or will she cling to it all the harder because she feels so worn down, and she feels like she needs it to be Galadreil?  We will see!  


Yeah, I am leaning towards Morgoth not paying her special attention in Valinor either.  He was caught up in Feanor, and in fracturing the House of Finwe, and I don't see Finarfin's children as high on his radar since Finarfin was never the key to fracturing the Noldor Feanor and Fingolfin were.  I remember it does say in cannon that she was caught up in the idea of ruling the lands of Endor, which I think is born from a seed of Morgoth's lies.  He was going around stirring the Noldor up with the idea that Endor was their inheritance and Men were going to 'steal' it from them.  I think we can see this idea of her feeling like ruling is her right when she comes to Lothlorien.  She and Celeborn pretty much turn the native Silvan populace into second class citizens.  They come in there with their Sindar like they are superior to these lowly Wood-Elves who are so in need of their guidance.'  It reeks of colonialism.  And it reminds me of the Noldor's attitudes when they first came to Beleriand, that idea that they were coming to return to Endor and find it empty and ripe for their rule.  I think most of the Noldor got this misconception knocked out of their head pretty quickly, but not all did.  But I wonder if Galadriel finally looked back on her actions and saw that had made wrong choices by the end of the 3rd Age.  She defiantly comes across as having grown weary; let us hope she learned something of wisdom as well!
Yes, Elrohir and Ellanad strike me as a throw back to the 1st Age Elves.  They still burn, even in a fading world.  


"As opposite I always imagine that Oropher&Gil-galad stuck around as ghosts and got to watch their grandchildren (more or less in G.'s case) fight together at the gates of Mordor and only THEN they realize that innocent people suffer from their mistakes and still stand up to make the world a better place."


This reminds me of a story I wish I had the time to write in which Gil-galad never actually died, but lost his memories.  I got the idea from the last line of the song about his fall.  It was a bit vague about what actually happened to him.  It got me thinking that maybe no one actually saw Sauron kill him, maybe Sauron cloaked them in darkness or something, and when the darkness parted, Gil-galad had disappeared and everyone assumed he was dead, but in reality Sauron had thought to keep him alive to play with, but then lost the Ring before he could fulfill his plans.  So Gil-galad spends years wandering around with no memory of who he is.  Gods, I really want to read a fic like this!

Thank you so much for the great discussion!  It gets me thinking more deeply about the story and the characters, and that is a priceless gift :hugs: 

 



Name: mangacrack (Signed) · Date: January 29, 2018 21:55 · For: Chapter 55

I've just read through the entire update and holy crap. I don't know if my heart can't take more pain. I'll have to go back and re-read the entire book in peace in order to truly appreciate it. Everything up to Celebrimbor's death is just ... no, I can't even think about it. The part between Telpe and Curufin, MY HEART.

and now this mess with Glorfindel and Gil-galad. To think that the worst is yet to come ... If Gil's death truly the worst. I wonder ... cause I don't know if we've reached rock bottom already. Truly there can be more? But how often do you can beat someone down until he loses all hope? From canon perspective I get why Estel and the Fellowship had to defeat Sauron, because the elders didn't have any strength anymore. But I can ALSO see why Estel and the others succeeded where this generation didn't.

It sounds like a clichee, but there's no true teamwork among the Last Alliance. Seen in the way Thranduil and Oropher behave and even how Gil-galad tells Glorfindel that it was alright to place his own people's lives above those of Thranduil. Personally I think that Legolas for instance learned a lot through the power elimination ... like the sum of his fathers mistakes and flaws is probably everything he shouldn't think or do. Of course it doesn't happen over night. It's a painful progress.

I like how our dear characters are a lot like Legolas was in The Hobbit. Not quite the same wise Elf he was in the Fellowship. We're still missing some growth. Or rather ... a lot of it. They still think they can affort to make mistakes and it will cost them dearly.

But ... if this point is the lowest where they can sink to ... repeating the mistakes of their ancestors, failing to protect what they died for, than I can tell myself it has to go UP at some point. Even if it's just sacrificing themselves for each other instead of dying out of strange, wounded pride and enmassed denial.

... is it wrong that I kind of want to kick Celebrimbor? I can understand his pain, but damnit couldn't he have taken Sauron down with him? What is this lowly maia against the mighty power of an enraged Feanorian? But ... I concede ... the Feanorians are broken. Way worse than the House of Fingolfin. At least Gil-galad is still ... whole. In a way. While Galadriel has managed to twist herself into something that I find regretful. I can't even hate her, it's just that she could be so much better? Of course one could argue that she doesn't deserve forgiveness, but ... does anyone?

If Morgoth sowed lies back in Valinor, if he messed up the original ... isn't a lot of history just a subsequent fault? An error in the way of thinking the new generations simply inherited? People like Glorfindel were able to start over, Elrond grew out of it, because his fathers learned through trail and error, but Galadriel is a good example of how Morgoth work, his lies and the damage the doom it are still there. Still very alive in the head of the people and the Eldar can only blame themselves. They carry the taint with them, infecting others like a disease ... even though they may think of it as tradition or worthy cause.

People like Galadriel should look into the mirror and go back to the point, where things last made sense. But admitting that is going to be the hardest step. But that path has to be walked, because if a united House of Finwe is what Morgoth worked so hard to prevent (and it's STILL working) that this exactly what they should to ... even if it's just to spite him.

 

GREAT WORK. Like always. I'm so glad that you're back.

 

 



Author's Response:
"I've just read through the entire update and holy crap. I don't know if my heart can't take more pain. I'll have to go back and re-read the entire book in peace in order to truly appreciate it. Everything up to Celebrimbor's death is just ... no, I can't even think about it. The part between Telpe and Curufin, MY HEART."

Thank you!!!  It's good to here from you, and thank you so much for taking the time to read and review   Gods, I cried while writing the Celebrimbor and Curufin scene!  I didn't know all that had happened or that Celebrimbor had suppressed the memories until we came to the end of his life.  It was as much a revelation for me as your guys.  Celebrimbor was really holding out on us lol

"and now this mess with Glorfindel and Gil-galad. To think that the worst is yet to come ... If Gil's death truly the worst. I wonder ... cause I don't know if we've reached rock bottom already. Truly there can be more? But how often do you can beat someone down until he loses all hope? From canon perspective I get why Estel and the Fellowship had to defeat Sauron, because the elders didn't have any strength anymore. But I can ALSO see why Estel and the others succeeded where this generation didn't."

Oh that's interesting!  I hadn't looked at it before from the perceptive of how much hope the Fellowship really did posses.  Merry and Pippin, Legolas, Gimil, all of them had a lot of hope still.  Some of it from ignorance like Merry and Pippen, but still, they didn't have the Long Defeat hanging over them.

I wanted to explore the despair that I feel infected the end of the 2nd Age, so I am really glad to hear it came through in the story!  The beginning of the 2nd Age must have been this time of new hope (and a lot of healing work to do!), but then another Dark Lord rises, and the killing starts again, and Numinor falls, and, for this story, the Elves had only their own tenacious estel to hold on to that the dead would ever be reborn.  Even optimistic Gildor would have struggled to hold that hope alive.

"It sounds like a clichee, but there's no true teamwork among the Last Alliance. Seen in the way Thranduil and Oropher behave and even how Gil-galad tells Glorfindel that it was alright to place his own people's lives above those of Thranduil."

This is so true.  The teamwork just isn't there, alliances are hanging by a thread.  It's a miracle they were all able to come together long enough to hold the siege and bring Sauron down.  In the first Age, even facing Morgoth, the different kingdoms couldn't put aside their differences even long enough to march to war together.  I think in cannon tho, something like this must have happened that caused the Wood-elf massacre and killed Oropher and Amdir.  

"But ... if this point is the lowest where they can sink to ... repeating the mistakes of their ancestors, failing to protect what they died for, than I can tell myself it has to go UP at some point. Even if it's just sacrificing themselves for each other instead of dying out of strange, wounded pride and enmassed denial."

They may not not be as ready to die for other peoples as they are for their own, but they have come a long way from the 1st Age, I think, where not only did kingdoms choose their own people first, they actively left others that should have been their allies to die (I am thinking of Doriath's closed boarders, and Gondolin's refusal to come to war for the Battle of Sudden Flames).  The old hatreds run deep, but at least no one is activating killing each other lol

"... is it wrong that I kind of want to kick Celebrimbor? I can understand his pain, but damnit couldn't he have taken Sauron down with him? What is this lowly maia against the mighty power of an enraged Feanorian?"

I think that right there is a major piece of the despair they are all struggling with: if they can't kill Sauron who is but ONE Maia, how on earth are they going to defeat the Valar?

"While Galadriel has managed to twist herself into something that I find regretful. I can't even hate her, it's just that she could be so much better? Of course one could argue that she doesn't deserve forgiveness, but ... does anyone?"

Yeah, no one really deserves forgiveness.  Forgiveness wouldn't be the small miracle it is if what was done was forgivable.  Galadreil might get a redemption arc, it will all depend on her choices.  I don't think she's gone beyond return.  She's not, say, a Sauron, and horrible as her actions have been, others in the story have done just as bad.  The problem is, she is refusing to acknowledge her mistakes, which is the first thing she needs to do in order to try and really, honestly, change.  It is regretful that she has become this person when she did indeed have the potential to be more.  She still might grown into that person she could have always been, but it will be up to her, and facing her own mistakes will not be easy (especially because her mistakes have directly lead to people she cares for being hurt).

"If Morgoth sowed lies back in Valinor, if he messed up the original ... isn't a lot of history just a subsequent fault? An error in the way of thinking the new generations simply inherited?"

This is an interesting idea.  Even after it was revealed that Morgoth was the spider behind the division between Feanor and Fingolfin, the suspicions did not die with this reveal.  Also, Morgoth spread a lot of lies about Men that probably were still in the back of the Noldor's heads when Men came out of the East.  I wonder if Morgoth said anything about the Elves that never came to Valinor, and how his lies influenced how the Noldor saw the Sindar and Wood-elves?  Wouldn't it be sad if the Noldor weren't able to see beyond the prejudices Morgoth had secretly been building the foundations to?  It's like Morgoth's lies were still bearing fruit centuries after the telling.

This gets me wondering if Morgoth put any special care into influencing Galadreil in Valinor.  I wonder if something he said was the seed for what went wrong in her?  Tho, I don't want to shave down every character and say they never would have been this way but for Morgoth.  I can see Morgoth taking an interest in her and trying to cultivate her as he did other members of Finwe's House...tho maybe she wasn't in Tirion enough to be thrown into his path much.  She could have spent more time with her mother's people....but no, her character is too Noldorin to be satisfied long among the Teleri.

Thank you so so much for taking the time to review, and read!!  I love hearing your thoughts, they always leave me taking a second look at things and sparking new ideas   I hope this finds you doing well :hugs:



Name: merwinem (Signed) · Date: January 26, 2018 22:18 · For: Chapter 55
You’re spoiling me with all these updates! I can barely keep up!

Regarding your reply to my last review, I’m not really surprised that Maglor didn’t tell Elrond much about Feanor. It must have been too painful – it’s the same with Glorfindel trying to talk to Gil-galad about Fingolfin. This lack of communication – whether due to painful memories or mistrust – is literally everywhere. One of the most agonizing things about the Maeglin chapters in P of V I was that Eol lived side-by-side with pieces of Finwe and Miriel for centuries and never even knew. It shows how little actual interaction there was between Aredhel and Eol considering that the Feanorions’ ancestry had never been brought up as casual dinner-time conversation. It’s so frustrating – why do all these people fail at basic communication? So many problems could have been avoided if only everyone was honest and open with everyone else.

Gil-galad’s conversation with Thranduil is a perfect illustration of why the Sindar annoy me so much. I acknowledge that they experienced a crippling loss – the kind of loss that was very commonplace for the Noldor in the First Age, incidentally. Unfortunately, instead of learning from their mistakes or using the experience to build closer bonds with their allies, they fall into misplaced hate. What did they expect would happen if they charged into battle without a plan and without alerting their allies? Did they really think a Maia would be so easy to defeat – you know, just run toward him, shoot some arrows in his general direction and hope for the best? The Noldor have a lot more experience fighting Orcs and Dark Lords than anyone else, so, yes, if they say a direct assault is a bad idea, they are probably right, and this has nothing to do with Noldor superiority. It’s exasperating that Thranduil dishes out blame and uses the situation to validate his own hate. And it’s depressing to think that this is just a taste of the kind of blind hatred the Noldor will have to deal with after rebirth. Hopefully Thranduil will remain in Middle Earth, but even without him there are plenty of Elves in Valinor who can and will make a lot of trouble for the Exiles.

As for Glorfindel and Gil-galad – what a trainwreck… Again, this is exactly the sort of thing that happens when there is a breakdown in communication. The Elves are their own worst enemies.

I’ve just now realized that according to the description the second story will end with the Last Alliance. Does this mean that we are down to the last few chapters in this fic? If so, I’m really excited for the final story!

Thank you so much for your hard work, the chapters were absolutely brilliant, and I enjoyed them, even if they did leave me feeling very irritated with all these thick-skulled Elves!

Author's Response:
"One of the most agonizing things about the Maeglin chapters in P of V I was that Eol lived side-by-side with pieces of Finwe and Miriel for centuries and never even knew. It shows how little actual interaction there was between Aredhel and Eol considering that the Feanorions’ ancestry had never been brought up as casual dinner-time conversation."

Aredhel and Eol definitely had communication problems, and didn't talk about Aredhel's heritage after that first meeting between them, but Eol did know she was Finwe's granddaughter.  I must not have been very clear in the story, sorry!  Eol made Maeglin that doll/toy of Finwe, and told him about him knowing Maeglin was Finwe's descendant.  But yeah, Eol probably never had another conversation with Aredhel again about Finwe.

"I’m not really surprised that Maglor didn’t tell Elrond much about Feanor. It must have been too painful – it’s the same with Glorfindel trying to talk to Gil-galad about Fingolfin. This lack of communication – whether due to painful memories or mistrust – is literally everywhere... It’s so frustrating – why do all these people fail at basic communication? So many problems could have been avoided if only everyone was honest and open with everyone else."

So true!  But then, if everyone had ideal communication, there wouldn't be much of a story   You got me thinking about this, about why exactly the communication is so bad, and I concluded that even though the Elves had plenty of time to talk and get everything out in the open, the fact that time really doesn't heal their tramas/greifs, makes it even more difficult for them than humans who have experienced trauma to talk about.  Their memories never fade with time, so they just have to learn how to live with grief that feels constantly fresh.  Glorfindel, for instance, has learned how to move on from what Irime did to him, but at the same time, he can close his eyes and feel every word sharp as the first time she said it.  I think it is incredibly difficult for the Noldor to talk about the dead since not only do they feel that grief so fresh and sharp, they are also struggling against despair every time they think about the dead because deep in their hearts they all have doubts about weather they will ever really be able to defeat the Valar and free the dead.

Then we've got Elves who are just bad at communication on top of that (looking at you Gil-galad).  Gil-galad's lack of communication and Glorifndel's past trauma = trainwreck.  You summed that disaster up nicely lol

"Gil-galad’s conversation with Thranduil is a perfect illustration of why the Sindar annoy me so much. I acknowledge that they experienced a crippling loss – the kind of loss that was very commonplace for the Noldor in the First Age, incidentally. Unfortunately, instead of learning from their mistakes or using the experience to build closer bonds with their allies, they fall into misplaced hate...It’s exasperating that Thranduil dishes out blame and uses the situation to validate his own hate."

Yes, I think you pin-point what annoys me about the Sindar too! (at least the Sindar we have seen in the story so far, there have got to be some who don't cling to hate...somewhere...)  When the Sindar experience a tragedy, they start looking for a culprits to pin the blame on and that usually ends up being the Noldor.  They don't examine how their own choices played into the tragedy.  While Thranduil is in a bad place right now, he is making the choice to sink into the blind hatred that he admits he didn't agree with.  The moment he was the one experiencing loss, he picked up hate, and didn't try to be reasonable about this at all.  (Tho I will say in his defense, that I imagine Celebron and other of his advisers took advantage of his grief to stoke the fires of hate, passing it on to the next generation.  But, still, unlike with Glorinfdel who eventually overcame his hatred of Irime, we know Thranduil never really does.  He still deeply mistrust the Noldor an Age later.)

"I’ve just now realized that according to the description the second story will end with the Last Alliance. Does this mean that we are down to the last few chapters in this fic? If so, I’m really excited for the final story!"

Only 2 more!!!!  I have started writing the final story, and it feels unbelievable that we have finally, finally, gotten there! Whew!

"Thank you so much for your hard work, the chapters were absolutely brilliant, and I enjoyed them, even if they did leave me feeling very irritated with all these thick-skulled Elves!"

:snorts:  Yep, that's Elves for you :grins:  Thank you so much for the continued support, and taking the time to leave the amazing reviews you do.  They keep me going :hugs:



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